What do you want out of this season? Pick or Playoffs? - Page 8 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

dino7c · 10-10-2013, 02:35 PM

Pens didn't draft Crosby because they tanked...they won the lottery

And Detroit is another team that won a cup or two with not tanking

CaramonLS · 10-10-2013, 02:36 PM

I have a ton of respect for what the Sharks did last season. They were on the cusp of the playoffs right around the trade deadline, but made a decision on two players (Clowe and Murray) who were not going to be returning to their team. The Sharks also knew that their cupboards in the minors were looking fairly barren.

Despite being close, they made those trades netting a whole whack of 2nd round picks in the next few years.

They stuck to their long term vision and organizational plan, trading away two players who were not in their long term plans without getting caught up in their current position in the standings.

Good organizations have the ability to do this. Should the Flames end up being in a similar spot (and a lot has to go right in order to do this), hopefully they make a decision like the Sharks did, which means moving some pending UFAs.

They ended up making the playoffs too.

codynw · 10-10-2013, 02:45 PM

I'm sure something like this has already been said, but...

If they can make it with their current roster, absolutely playoffs. If you're a fan, no other answer is acceptable.

However, if they start losing, I don't want to see picks and prospects traded for veterans in the hope that they can make a playoff push. That's what got the team into rebuilding mode in the first place. Have a winning attitude, but if they lose, take the high draft pick and try again next year.

Rerun · 10-10-2013, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacks

Lots of people are.

Tanking to me is losing on purpose.

No it isn't. There are a lot of things the team could do to increase their chances of making the playoffs... trading some of their young players and future prospects for vets, for example.

Should they do this? No. Does that mean they are trying to lose on purpose? No. They are just doing whats best for the team's future success and by success I mean winning the Stanley Cup... not just making the playoffs.

codynw · 10-10-2013, 02:49 PM

However, if tanking in 2015 gives them a better shot at McDavid...

Rerun · 10-10-2013, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codynw

I'm sure something like this has already been said, but...

If they can make it with their current roster and be a Stanley Cup contender, absolutely playoffs. If you're a fan, no other answer is acceptable.

However, if they start losing, I don't want to see picks and prospects traded for veterans in the hope that they can make a playoff push. That's what got the team into rebuilding mode in the first place. Have a winning attitude, but if they lose, take the high draft pick and try again next year.

I mostly agree with your statement and fixed it so I wholly agree..

Resolute 14 · 10-10-2013, 02:57 PM

lol Tinordi, you're one to criticize about acting in a way to "feel superior to other posters for no other purpose than self gratification." Hypocrite.

And no, deliberately tanking is not acceptable. Wanting to finish as low as possible is not acceptable. Such desires are the hallmarks of losers. No organization, no player, no coach, no manger, and no fan should ever actually want this.

But just as only one team can win the Cup, and only one team can win the Pacific Division, one team has to finish 30th. Or 25th. I accept that the Flames were god awful last year. I accept that they were an embarrassment. I accept that changes need(ed) to be made.

But this isn't a question of acceptance or want. This is a question of desire. You desire failure, and you rationalize it with the delusion that it is the only path to future success. I desire improvement. Now, and in the future. I am a pragmatist, and I will take whatever result we have from this season as it comes. But finishing as bad or worse as we were last year is not something to be proud of. It is not something to desire. If it is your desire, as seems likely, then you completely misunderstand the point of competition and sport.

MolsonInBothHands · 10-10-2013, 03:05 PM

I will always want the team to make the playoffs, even if it is 8th spot. Having said that, if they are close to a playoff spot come trade deadline, I would still want the team to be sellers of their pending UFAs to get more picks. I don't think management will be fooled by unexpected success this time around, if it actually materializes. It is still way to early to expect that.

Rerun · 10-10-2013, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MolsonInBothHands

I will always want the team to make the playoffs, even if it is 8th spot. Having said that, if they are close to a playoff spot come trade deadline, I would still want the team to be sellers of their pending UFAs to get more picks. I don't think management will be fooled by unexpected success this time around, if it actually materializes. It is still way to early to expect that.

So you want the team to make the playoffs but if it looks like you will, you'll trade your best vet (Cammy) in order to get more draft pics and probably a better draft position. (kinda tanking?)

Isn't that being kind of hypocritical and dishonest? At least I'm being honest in saying I want the team to finish near or at the bottom this year to improve our chances at drafting Ekblad who I believe is a franchise player. I'm not saying lets make a habit of this... just for the 2014 draft would be fine with me.

Wolven · 10-10-2013, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rerun

So you want the team to make the playoffs but if it looks like you will, you'll trade your best vet (Cammy) in order to get more draft pics and probably a better draft position. (kinda tanking?)

Isn't that being kind of hypocritical and dishonest? At least I'm being honest in saying I want the team to finish near or at the bottom this year to improve our chances at drafting Ekblad who I believe is a franchise player. I'm not saying lets make a habit of this... just for the 2014 draft would be fine with me.

To be fair, he said "close to making the playoffs" not "it looks like you will". Teams that are "close" are generally sitting in the 10th spot in the conference. Teams that "will" are more likely in 5th or better.

If we are a fringe team and looking like we are in danger of a 9th place finish then I would rather go into full sell mode at the deadline to avoid barely missing the playoffs.

If the Flames are right in the middle of the hunt and sitting in 5th place in the conference then skip the fire sale and go for a playoff run.

In a perfect world though, I would rather end up with Ekblad and McDavid in the next two drafts and be set up for the Flames turning into the next cup contenders instead of a fringe playoff team.

MolsonInBothHands · 10-10-2013, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rerun

So you want the team to make the playoffs but if it looks like you will, you'll trade your best vet (Cammy) in order to get more draft pics and probably a better draft position. (kinda tanking?)

Isn't that being kind of hypocritical and dishonest? At least I'm being honest in saying I want the team to finish near or at the bottom this year to improve our chances at drafting Ekblad who I believe is a franchise player. I'm not saying lets make a habit of this... just for the 2014 draft would be fine with me.

Where did I say I am hoping for the team to lose after the deadline?

At this point in the team's rebuild, we do not have enough assets to be able to afford trading away for veteran help. Develop your roster through the draft, slowly and with sustainability.

It's the asset we would get back in trade that I value, not the potential for a lottery pick.

Inferno · 10-10-2013, 03:55 PM

Playoffs, I'll never cheer for this team to finish at the bottom of the league to get a better draft spot.

automaton 3 · 10-10-2013, 03:56 PM

Playoffs are the most exciting time in hockey. Not sure why any sports fan would chose to cheer for their team to lose.

Besides, making the playoffs and successful drafting are not mutually exclusive. The ramp up of the scouting department and the success of recent drafts leaves me with much greater faith in their ability to draft good players, even if the Flames don't have a top-five pick.

Rerun · 10-10-2013, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolven

To be fair, he said "close to making the playoffs" not "it looks like you will". Teams that are "close" are generally sitting in the 10th spot in the conference.

Ok... yes he did but we've been there done that... doesn't work.

I'd rather be honest and play with what we have knowing that the odds are we will end up at the bottom of the league in April than lie to myself by saying we are playing to make the playoffs. I'm not saying go out on the ice to deliberately lose. But instead send a team out onto the ice that will benefit the Flames more in the future by giving them playing time and if we lose... oh well ... that's the way the cookie crumbles.

With the vets on the team, we know what they are and more playing time won't improve their skill level and confidence. Not so for the rookies and juniors and sophomores. By the end of the year I want to see Sven and Sean getting close to top line minutes and a lot more Abbotsford players playing on this team.

Playing time builds confidence and usually with confidence you get success. Its about time we stopped playing for the now and started playing for tomorrow.

GirlySports · 10-10-2013, 03:58 PM

The Calgary Flames have never in their existance picked in the top 5 in the draft, not even in the dreadful Young Gun years. I'm quite proud of that.

Rerun · 10-10-2013, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MolsonInBothHands

Where did I say I am hoping for the team to lose after the deadline?

If you trade away your better veteran players (and those are the ones that will be tradable) for draft picks (you said it...not me), that's exactly what will happen.

N-E-B · 10-10-2013, 04:02 PM

Playoffs any day, but it's not happening. Don't get your hopes up yet.

MolsonInBothHands · 10-10-2013, 04:04 PM

Hoping for losses, especially this early in the season, makes me think of that spoiled brat, unwrapping gifts, tossing them aside and looking for the one, never satisfied.

Put in an honest effort with what you have. If it doesn't work, fix it. Just don't deliberately pull the wheels off your truck because you heard the Sears Christmas Wish Book is going to rock this year.

OzSome · 10-10-2013, 04:09 PM

Of course PLAYOFFS. The young guys Flames have will not learn how to win if the team wouldn't compete game in and game out. They will develop the attitude that is okay to lose. Like I said before...TANKING is not an option for this team. There is no sure bet on the first overall pick or even the top 3 pick... DiPietro, Brian Lawton, Alexandre Daigle, Jack Johnson... and so on.

The Fonz · 10-10-2013, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

I have a ton of respect for what the Sharks did last season. They were on the cusp of the playoffs right around the trade deadline, but made a decision on two players (Clowe and Murray) who were not going to be returning to their team. The Sharks also knew that their cupboards in the minors were looking fairly barren.

Despite being close, they made those trades netting a whole whack of 2nd round picks in the next few years.

They stuck to their long term vision and organizational plan, trading away two players who were not in their long term plans without getting caught up in their current position in the standings.

Summed up my thoughts exactly.

Playoff position or not, Beaster better not hang on to Stempniak/Stajan/Cammalleri only to lose them in summer to free agency.