I am not saying anything is right or wrong because I never grew up in that culture to understand why they believe what they do. It's easy to sit on the outside and pass judgement.
I didn't ask you if you think it right or wrong. I am asking you if you believe a man who commits an honour killing should be convicted of murder. To be more specific, the father and brother who drowned four women from their family in the canal in Kingston were convicted of murder. Given they, culturally, felt that killing these women was justified, do you think the conviction was incorrect?
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Not every culture embraces the same beliefs. If the overwhelming majority of people in a culture believe something is wrong who are we to argue with that?
The biggest problem I have about our North American culture is the sheer intolerance for anyone who shares different beliefs. It's more or less our way or its wrong, then we preach that intolerance is wrong.
So you don't like intolerance in NA, but encourage it elsewhere to be tolerant?
The right to life (once born, pre birth is whole other kettle of wax) and freedom are fundamental human rights agreed to by all nations. Sexual orientation and expression falls into that freedom part.
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."
I am not saying anything is right or wrong because I never grew up in that culture to understand why they believe what they do. It's easy to sit on the outside and pass judgement.
Its easy to be ignorant too.
However, oppression isn't a new concept. Governments and religions have been oppressing people... forever. You do not need to live in a certain place or with a certain group of people to know that oppression is bad. There have been enough revolutions and wars over the years for anyone to connect the dots themselves.
Location: In my office, at the Ministry of Awesome!
Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by korzym12
You hit it.
As someone who doesn't support gays, yet am still respectful towards them - you get compared to nazis who mercilessly killed millions of innocents.
I think when Russia is accused of not being "democratic", it's just an accusation thrown around when they have different views than us.
And through all this note that Russia is my culture's greatest sworn enemy. But in this situation I think they're right.
For the record, supporting removing rights from a person based solely on a specific trait that you deem to be immoral, inferior, or otherwise disagreeable, is pretty much the definition of disrespecting people.
You've said that in a democracy people should respect the laws, even if they are in place to oppress a minority.
So by your own admission you would see absoutely zero problems with laws that outlawed your religion, or another religion, or hell, even called for the genocide of a particular group?
You obviously also think that the south was perfectly justified in the civil war, and that the north was fighting a war of aggression trying to force their beliefs on a group that had democratically decided that owning slaves was AOK.
Go ahead and argue all you want that what I'm saying isn't correct, but it either absoutely is, and you are a horrible person who doesn't understand the principles of democracy, or you are just very particlular in your biggotry, and are trying to hide it behind inconsistent logic.
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Last edited by Bring_Back_Shantz; 08-26-2013 at 03:59 PM.
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Not every culture embraces the same beliefs. If the overwhelming majority of people in a culture believe something is wrong who are we to argue with that?
The biggest problem I have about our North American culture is the sheer intolerance for anyone who shares different beliefs. It's more or less our way or its wrong, then we preach that intolerance is wrong.
It's not just a matter of them believing it's wrong, it's a matter of imposing a rule making a large portion of our athletes and citizens illegal.
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For the record, supporting removing rights from a person based solely on a specific trait that you deem to be immoral, inferior, or otherwise disagreeable, is pretty much the definition of disrespecting people.
You've said that in a democracy people should respect the laws, even if they are in place to oppress a minority.
So by your own admission you would see absoutely zero problems with laws that outlawed your religion, or another religion, or hell, even called for the genocide of a particular group?
You obviously also think that the south was perfectly justified in the civil war, and that the north was fighting a war of aggression trying to force their beliefs on a group that had democratically decided that owning slaves was AOK.
Go ahead and argue all you want that what I'm saying isn't correct, but it either absoutely is, and you are a horrible person who doesn't understand the principles of democracy, or you are just very particlular in your biggotry, and are trying to hide it behind inconsistent logic.
“Rights mean you have a right to your life. You have a right to your liberty, and you should have a right to keep the fruits of your labor....I, in a way, don’t like to use those terms: gay rights, women’s rights, minority rights, religious rights. There’s only one type of right. It’s the right to your liberty.”
“You have to remember, rights don't come in groups we shouldn't have 'gay rights'; rights come as individuals, and we wouldn't have this major debate going on. It would be behavior that would count, not what person belongs to what group.”
“Rights mean you have a right to your life. You have a right to your liberty, and you should have a right to keep the fruits of your labor....I, in a way, don’t like to use those terms: gay rights, women’s rights, minority rights, religious rights. There’s only one type of right. It’s the right to your liberty.”
“You have to remember, rights don't come in groups we shouldn't have 'gay rights'; rights come as individuals, and we wouldn't have this major debate going on. It would be behavior that would count, not what person belongs to what group.”
Come on you made that way too easy for me.
Quoting Ron Paul, a known racist, isn't helping your point.
So you don't like intolerance in NA, but encourage it elsewhere to be tolerant?
The right to life (once born, pre birth is whole other kettle of wax) and freedom are fundamental human rights agreed to by all nations. Sexual orientation and expression falls into that freedom part.
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."
We signed up for that. Sticking a patch on a hockey jersey is a small price to pay for maintaining the moral high ground.
You're missing the point.
On top of the fact that 74% are in favour of this law in Russia, you're comparing apples to oranges, aka principles of a true Republic to a "Federal republic, Semi-presidential system, Constitutional republic". If you think Russia needs to be a "democracy" 74% means that Russia is operating as a democracy.
Only in a true Republic can minority rights be respected.
You know what happens to black football players in eastern Europe? Unfortunately they're exposed to major racism and have bananas thrown at them. I don't think you understand this part of the world. Did you see how the Russians were attacked during Euro 2012?
This part of the world is very set in its own ways and protectionist in more ways than one.
People can disagree with gays but still respect them, but it's a different mentality in Russia. The political system and culture are not as "open" as they are here.
Location: In my office, at the Ministry of Awesome!
Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by korzym12
“Rights mean you have a right to your life. You have a right to your liberty, and you should have a right to keep the fruits of your labor....I, in a way, don’t like to use those terms: gay rights, women’s rights, minority rights, religious rights. There’s only one type of right. It’s the right to your liberty.”
“You have to remember, rights don't come in groups we shouldn't have 'gay rights'; rights come as individuals, and we wouldn't have this major debate going on. It would be behavior that would count, not what person belongs to what group.”
Come on you made that way too easy for me.
Okay, so you don't believe in seperate rights, that rights are rights, but you think it's prefectly okay to tell a certain group that they do not have the same rights as everyone else?
In Russia, I have the right express my feelings however I see fit to someone that I am in love with in a public place, and I am allowed to tell people about my sexual orientation.
The same cannot be said for someone who is gay. How are those equal rights?
If the law was saying that no one can express any sort of public affection, or discuss sexual orientation, then the law would simply be stupid, but not oppresive and discriminatory. As it stands now, it is the defintion of those things, and to attempt to argue from a logical standpoint that that isn't the case, is impossible.
To say that the right to liberty is the only right (as the first quote says) is the most self defeating argument I've ever seen. How is taking away someones right to speak freely about their sexual orientation preserving their right to liberty?
To say that rights belong to the individual, and that actions count is also self defeating to your position. Those individaly rights, should be universal, and taking them away from someone for being a part of a group is exactly what this is talking about. As for actions, the entire point of preserving certian rights, is so people can do what is unpopular (actions) without being persecuted by the majority that may not agree with their opinion or lifestyle.
This is what pisses me off the most about ignorant people who insist on arguing this point.
They say things like "Why should they have special rights" like it is actually true.
The fact of the matter is, this argument isn't about granting special rights to a specific group, it's about recoginizing that certain groups have been denied certain rights, and extending those rights to everone as they should have been in the first place.
You are 100% correct that the terms "Gay rights" shouldn't be used, because right now there is no such thing. Right now, there are only "Straight People's Rights", and that is what we are trying to fix.
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Last edited by Bring_Back_Shantz; 08-26-2013 at 04:43 PM.
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Okay, so you don't believe in seperate rights, that rights are rights, but you think it's prefectly okay to tell a certain group that they do not have the same rights as everyone else?
In Russia, I have the right express my feelings however I see fit to someone that I am in love with in a public place, and I am allowed to tell people about my sexual orientation.
The same cannot be said for someone who is gay. How are those equal rights?
If the law was saying that no one can express any sort of public affection, or discuss sexual orientation, then the law would simply be stupid, but not oppresive and discriminatory. As it stands now, it is the defintion of those things, and to attempt to argue from a logical standpoint that that isn't the case, is impossible.
Let me tell you, a law is one thing. Try doing that in Russia. If you want to take that as a dare well then you'll understand how things are in Eastern Europe.
I'm not even referring to the police, getting arrested by the police should be the least of a gay's concern in Russia. I don't agree with that but it's more of a wild west mentality out there.
He's not racist at all, he's saying everyone has individual rights and that provides for equal rights for all.
So you are saying that people should each possess the same right to hold hands with their partners regardless of sexual orientation? Or that being gay and promoting the gay lifestyle shouldn't be a crime anymore than promoting the straight lifestyle? Sorry but I don't think you are very smart.
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Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by korzym12
Let me tell you, a law is one thing. Try doing that in Russia. If you want to take that as a dare well then you'll understand how things are in Eastern Europe.
I'm not even referring to the police, getting arrested by the police should be the least of a gay's concern in Russia. I don't agree with that but it's more of a wild west mentality out there.
You know, I'm having a really hard time believeing that right now.
Oh, and nice job totally evading the questions.
Could you please answer mine about the civil war?
Was the Norht fighting a war of agression against the totally justifed slave owning south? Afterall, that's just the way it was down there, and they voted democtatically to allow it, so you're totally on board with it right?
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You know, I'm having a really hard time believeing that right now.
Oh, and nice job totally evading the questions.
Could you please answer mine about the civil war?
Was the Norht fighting a war of agression against the totally justifed slave owning south? Afterall, that's just the way it was down there, and they voted democtatically to allow it, so you're totally on board with it right?
You think you have the right to question me? LOL WEAK westerner.
You think you have the right to question me? LOL WEAK westerner.
It's always fun seeing the point where someone knows they are defeated in an intellectual debate but refuses to admit it to anyone, including themselves.
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He's not racist at all, he's saying everyone has individual rights and that provides for equal rights for all.
"Given the inefficiencies of what DC laughingly calls the criminal justice system, I think we can safely assume that 95 percent of the black males in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal."
"Criminals who terrorize our cities – in riots and on every non-riot day – are not exclusively young black males, but they largely are."
"Opinion polls consistently show that only about 5 percent of blacks have sensible political opinions."
"Immigrants can spread diseases for which we may have no immunity. There is also the question of crime and culture. Many immigrants come from countries with different legal structures and are not willing to behave in the way we expect American citizens to behave."
"What else do we need to know about the political establishment than that it refuses to discuss the crimes that terrify Americans on grounds that doing so is racist? Why isn’t that true of complex embezzling, which is 100 percent white and Asian?"
"What an infamy that Ronald Reagan approved [MLK Day]! We can thank him for our annual Hate Whitey Day."
"White people found themselves walking alone many blocks to get home, running the minefield of black gangs out for their blood."
"Jury verdicts, basketball games, and even music are enough to set off black rage, it seems."
"Middle-class blacks & black political activists hold opinions not markedly different from the Crips and the Bloods."
"What if the checks had never arrived? No doubt the blacks would have fully privatized the welfare state through continued looting."
- Ron Paul
I guess you're wrong again, he's definitely a racist. Need I go on? You seem to get proven wrong a lot. A nazi sympathiser and a defender of racists, must be AWESOME being you.
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After taking power in 1933, the Nazis persecuted homosexuals as part of their so-called moral crusade to racially and culturally purify Germany. This persecution ranged from dissolution of homosexual organizations to internment of thousands of individuals in concentration camps. Gay men, in particular, were subject to harassment, arrest, incarceration....
It's one thing to cite Nazi Germany in an argument completely unrelated, but in this case, it's solidly on point.
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