[Signing] Blues sign Bouwmeester to 5yr extension ($5.4 mil AAV)

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by blender

You know it is CP in August when there is a debate raging about Bouwmeester vs Giordano.
News Flash: Bouwmeester is no longer a Flame and Gio never was/will be a number one D.
Both are good NHL players who play different roles.
ricardodw can prove anything with statistics; 74% of CPers know that!

I prefer the Bouwmeester supporters statistical analysis.... you know... plays 30 minutes a game , scores a lot and skating and reach allow him to dominate the game in the defense zone. No particular factual evidence.... just a feeling.

At 30 minutes a game he has to be in the top 20 d-men,, never mind that there is no statistical category other than ice time that he is in the top 20 in the league. On the other hand of the top 20 d-man that he trails in scoring he leads in being on the ice far more of even strength goals than his team scores.


In 2010-11 who exactly was the Flames #1 d-man.

Bouwmeester with his 26 pts despite lots of powerplay time could only be considered a pure shut down d-man.... but not as good as Regehr, Willie Mitchell, Volchenko, Phillips who would never be considered even top 2 d-men.

26 points in 82 games!!!! Regehr scored 26 pts in 68 games in 05-06.

No way was Bouwmeester the Flames #1 d-man in 2010-11.

[moon]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I prefer the Bouwmeester supporters statistical analysis.... you know... plays 30 minutes a game , scores a lot and skating and reach allow him to dominate the game in the defense zone. No particular factual evidence.... just a feeling.

At 30 minutes a game he has to be in the top 20 d-men,, never mind that there is no statistical category other than ice time that he is in the top 20 in the league. On the other hand of the top 20 d-man that he trails in scoring he leads in being on the ice far more of even strength goals than his team scores.

What exact stats would you like for showing his ability in the defensive zone?

And since when did points become the be all and end all of ranking defensemen?

I know it isn't as useful as getting down on Bouwmeester for not being Lidstrom or making up some garbage to try and compare him to Eriksson but for the most part we have to rely on watching what happens on the ice to determine a defenseman's overall play.

In 2010-11 who exactly was the Flames #1 d-man.

Bouwmeester with his 26 pts despite lots of powerplay time could only be considered a pure shut down d-man.... but not as good as Regehr, Willie Mitchell, Volchenko, Phillips who would never be considered even top 2 d-men.

26 points in 82 games!!!! Regehr scored 26 pts in 68 games in 05-06.

No way was Bouwmeester the Flames #1 d-man in 2010-11.

Probably Bouwmeester or maybe Gio. Probably not a traditional #1 like Weber, Chara, Lidstrom etc. but those seem to be pretty rare these days.

Also he had the 4th most ice time on the PP that year. Not 0 chances but far from the lots of PP time you try to make it out to be.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by moon

And since when did points become the be all and end all of ranking defensemen?

1967.

and then locked away forever in 1981.

[Hockey_Ninja]

Originally Posted by Machiavelli

Can't think of another hockey player as boring and awkward at this guy. Good luck in St. Louis, thanks for nothing.

Phil Kessel is pretty damn awkward.

[doctajones428]

Biggest reason Bouwmeester sucked on our team? Because our entire team has sucked

Guys like Hagman, Kotalik, Higgins, White, Stajan, Bourque and Comeau are primary reason we have been so bad the past few years. David Moss on the first line. Nigel Dawes on the second line. Butler on the first pairing. One year our fourth line of Jackman-Moss-Kostopolous was our best line. Doesn't things like that scream to you why we've been so bad?

I know it's fun to stockpile hate on Bouwmeester, even after we traded him, but he was without a doubt our best defenseman last year and we sucked harder this year than any other year in the past 4.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

wow do you ever value that 3 minutes of extra ice time that Bouwmeester can deliver. This is delivered with 3rd pairing offence and no physical aspect to his game.

If Gio were to stop hitting altogether and clearing out in front of the net he could easily play another 3 minutes BUT he would be playing Bouwmeester style and not be effective either.


The way the Bouwmeester's supporters tell it Bouwmeester is a 30 minute d-man that controls the game...... I have never seen this version.

Lidstrom (like Bouwmeester) played 26 minutes of non-contact hockey. Do the Bouwmeester supporters see the difference that hockey IQ and passing and offensive ability that Lidstrom put into his 26 minutes?

Do you know who else delivered a lot of ice time? Anders Eriksson.... the biggest difference between Bouwmeester and Eriksson? Eriksson played a role in winning a Stanley cup with Detroit in 1998.

Both Bouwmeester and Eriksson were physically large skilled 1st round picks that can play a lot of minutes that did not play physically and do not play well in important games.

Eriksson's individual bad plays are well documented but as far as an extended suckage under pressure by someone the team counts on: Bouwmeester's games 72 through 80 in 2011-12 can be used as a class room example. He played well the last 2 games after the Flames were eliminated.

Why are you acting like I'm a Bouw supporter? A page ago I said Cundari brought more emotion to his five game callup than Jay brought to his three and a half years here.

Brodie is the guy who's going to be thrown into the deep end, and he should be; he's the only defenseman on the roster who has a higher ceiling than he's shown. Gio is most effective as a 3 playing against secondary guys and chipping in on the PP a bit. Wideman is a PP QB who's a decent NHL defender but, like Gio, he's limited.

Brodie has it within him to be a Dan Boyle/Keith Yandle type player. He improved with every game last year. He played 26 minutes in a 9-0 loss and was even. He has tremendous upside.

All I meant was there's no point in giving Bouw's minutes to guys we KNOW can't handle it, when the point of this rebuild is to see if a guy like Brodie CAN.

[Sylvanfan]

He is taking a 20% payout for seasons when the cap will be 70-80+ per year. He was overpaid as a Flame, and not able to be an elite all situations number one guy. This contract allows him to slot as a number 2-3 guy. Still I don't see him ever being a key player on a championship team.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by doctajones428

Biggest reason Bouwmeester sucked on our team? Because our entire team has sucked

I hear this a lot, but anyone who has seen the impact an impact defenseman can make knows that's not true. Elite defensemen (something the Flames signed Bouwmeester to be) find a way to not suck. Supporters of Bouwmeester like to compare his style of play to Lidstrom, but if it was Lidstrom back there, I guarantee you he would not have sucked. He would have controlled the play and moved the puck up ice consistently and reliably.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by FAN

I hear this a lot, but anyone who has seen the impact an impact defenseman can make knows that's not true. Elite defensemen (something the Flames signed Bouwmeester to be) find a way to not suck. Supporters of Bouwmeester like to compare his style of play to Lidstrom, but if it was Lidstrom back there, I guarantee you he would not have sucked. He would have controlled the play and moved the puck up ice consistently and reliably.

While I agree with the idea that Elite players should always be able to find a way to not suck, I still think the Bouwmeester problem / solution became painfully obvious with the coaching change. The difference between Bouwmeester under Hartley after watching him playing under Sutter was night and day.

I think a lot of people would argue that Hitchcock is a better coach than either Sutter or Hartley. Since Bouwmeester seems to react so strongly to the coach he is playing under, Hitchcock could potentially propel Bouwmeester back to "Elite" gameplay (if what we saw in Calgary is any kind of evidence).

Bouwmeester may never be the kind of elite player that can break games and carry the team on his back but that doesn't mean that he sucks. It more means that he is the kind of elite player that needs to be in a more secondary role on his team. His new situation with the Blues could be perfect for him.

[Sylvanfan]

I think elite level guys have to have the internal desire to assert themselves on a game. Frankly I think Jay Bouwmeester is completely devoid of that trait. No coach will ever convince him to be a guy who takes over a game. Guys like Niedermayer, Pronger, Lidstrom all would do that with completely different styles to do so. But they did it, and did it for numerous coaches. Bouwmeester is what he is, a good top defenceman who can be a top pair guy. But he's not an elite number one that you build a championship team around. The Flames thought they were getting that...they didn't. Hence why he's taking a paycut now, no one thinks he's that player.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Wolven

While I agree with the idea that Elite players should always be able to find a way to not suck, I still think the Bouwmeester problem / solution became painfully obvious with the coaching change. The difference between Bouwmeester under Hartley after watching him playing under Sutter was night and day.

I think a lot of people would argue that Hitchcock is a better coach than either Sutter or Hartley. Since Bouwmeester seems to react so strongly to the coach he is playing under, Hitchcock could potentially propel Bouwmeester back to "Elite" gameplay (if what we saw in Calgary is any kind of evidence).

Bouwmeester may never be the kind of elite player that can break games and carry the team on his back but that doesn't mean that he sucks. It more means that he is the kind of elite player that needs to be in a more secondary role on his team. His new situation with the Blues could be perfect for him.

He is in a very similar situation in St.L as he was when he joined the Flames --- The Flames were a given to making the playoffs... making it 5 straight seasons.

Phanuef was used in the promo for the Olympic squad and would have been rated as highly in September 2009 as Pietroangelo is today. Regehr was expected to get an invite and a good look to make that Olympic team .....and would have been rated higher than Jackman ever was.

Kipper was in net and the top forwards Iginla, Jokinen, Langkow, Bourque and Glencross were easily comparable to Backes, Oshie, Steen, Stewart and Berglund.

The biggest change to the solid successful Flames teams from 2004 - 2009 was the addition of Bouwmeester and Jokinen and the loss of Cammalleri, Bertuzzi and Aucion. It forced a series of events that the Flames are digging out from.


Will the addition of Bouwmeester to the Blues turn out differently?? Time will tell.

[moon]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

He is in a very similar situation in St.L as he was when he joined the Flames --- The Flames were a given to making the playoffs... making it 5 straight seasons.

Phanuef was used in the promo for the Olympic squad and would have been rated as highly in September 2009 as Pietroangelo is today. Regehr was expected to get an invite and a good look to make that Olympic team .....and would have been rated higher than Jackman ever was.

Kipper was in net and the top forwards Iginla, Jokinen, Langkow, Bourque and Glencross were easily comparable to Backes, Oshie, Steen, Stewart and Berglund.

The biggest change to the solid successful Flames teams from 2004 - 2009 was the addition of Bouwmeester and Jokinen and the loss of Cammalleri, Bertuzzi and Aucion. It forced a series of events that the Flames are digging out from.


Will the addition of Bouwmeester to the Blues turn out differently?? Time will tell.

The biggest change to the Flames was an old team getting older with no young replacements coming in.

Adding talented players like Bouwmeester wasn't the issue at all and the Blues improving their team by signing Bouwmeester to their team won't hurt them at all.

[doctajones428]

Originally Posted by FAN

I hear this a lot, but anyone who has seen the impact an impact defenseman can make knows that's not true. Elite defensemen (something the Flames signed Bouwmeester to be) find a way to not suck. Supporters of Bouwmeester like to compare his style of play to Lidstrom, but if it was Lidstrom back there, I guarantee you he would not have sucked. He would have controlled the play and moved the puck up ice consistently and reliably.

We could sign anyone to be an elite defenseman, but it doesn't mean they are elite or ever will be elite. Should we offer Ryan Whitney $6.68 million to be a elite defenseman?

Wheelbarrows of cash don't turn non elite players into elite players. He was overpaid like most players who had their negotiation rights traded

[Tinordi]

Purely a coincidence that Bouwmeester's arrival coincided with the long-term downward trajectory of the team. The real issue was the calcification of the roster.

[doctajones428]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

The biggest change to the solid successful Flames teams from 2004 - 2009 was the addition of Bouwmeester and Jokinen and the loss of Cammalleri, Bertuzzi and Aucion. It forced a series of events that the Flames are digging out from.

Trading Phaneuf, Prust and Jokinen is what dug us in the hole. Bringing in Bouwmeester only prevented us from a few years of Cammy

Brining in Hagman, Stajan, Mayers, White, Kotalik, Higgins and then eventually Babchuk and Kostopolous was the biggest change.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by Wolven

Bouwmeester may never be the kind of elite player that can break games and carry the team on his back but that doesn't mean that he sucks. It more means that he is the kind of elite player that needs to be in a more secondary role on his team. His new situation with the Blues could be perfect for him.

No. Bouwmeester simply isn't an elite player. If he "needs to be in a more secondary role on his team" then he isn't an elite player.

Originally Posted by doctajones428

We could sign anyone to be an elite defenseman, but it doesn't mean they are elite or ever will be elite. Should we offer Ryan Whitney $6.68 million to be a elite defenseman?

Wheelbarrows of cash don't turn non elite players into elite players. He was overpaid like most players who had their negotiation rights traded

Huh? So you agree that Bouwmeester isn't an elite defenseman?

There are players who sign a big contract and fail to live up to it. There are players who are completely overrated and suck after signing a big contract and moving to a new team. There are players who are overpaid but still find a way to contribute. The Flames signed Bouwmeester thinking he was an elite franchise defenseman. It turns out he was completely overrated and sucked after signing a big contract and moving to the Flames.

[Red John]

Have discovered moon's shtick! He/she is the ultimate reverse hater.

Every time Flames fans as a whole dislike a player (Especially a former Flame) moon will ensure to heap praise on them.

Hate on Phaneuf? Moon thinks hes awesome.
Hate on Luongo? Moon thinks hes awesome.
Hate on Bouwmeester? Moon thinks he's awesome. Even though Moon used to think Bouwmeester was awful when he was a Flame. But now that he's gone and Flames fans criticize him, he's awesome again.
Hate on the CFL? Moon thinks its awesome.
Hate on the Miami Heat? Moon thinks they are awesome.

Basically whenever Flames fans start making fun of anything, Moon decides to become a fan.

Test this out - every time you see Moon made a post, try and guess what his opinion is before reading it. Then open the thread. It's uncanny.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

He is in a very similar situation in St.L as he was when he joined the Flames --- The Flames were a given to making the playoffs... making it 5 straight seasons.

...

Nice comparisons between the rosters of today's Blues and the Flames when Bouwmeester joined the team. I can see the similarities.

However, my entire post was about the obvious impact to Bouwmeester's game that comes from the coach he is playing under. Regardless of the other names on the roster when Bouwmeester was a Flame, Sutter was the coach up until this last season when Hartley took over. When Bouwmeester was deployed under Hartley he was a totally different player. He was still good defensively but he was able to impact the game a lot more by using his speed to generate offense.

Even if the two rosters were identical between the 2009 Flames and the 2014 Blues, the difference that you glossed over is that they have Hitchcock as a coach and we had B.Sutter.

Originally Posted by FAN

No. Bouwmeester simply isn't an elite player. If he "needs to be in a more secondary role on his team" then he isn't an elite player.

I believe he has elite speed, skill and ability but he doesn't have an elite personality. He duitfully did what his coach wanted from him even though it made him look like a worse player than he actually is.

To you that means he is nowhere near Elite status. To me it means he is "Elite Lite".

[moon]

Originally Posted by Red John

Have discovered moon's shtick! He/she is the ultimate reverse hater.

Every time Flames fans as a whole dislike a player (Especially a former Flame) moon will ensure to heap praise on them.

Hate on Phaneuf? Moon thinks hes awesome.
Hate on Luongo? Moon thinks hes awesome.
Hate on Bouwmeester? Moon thinks he's awesome. Even though Moon used to think Bouwmeester was awful when he was a Flame. But now that he's gone and Flames fans criticize him, he's awesome again.
Hate on the CFL? Moon thinks its awesome.
Hate on the Miami Heat? Moon thinks they are awesome.

Basically whenever Flames fans start making fun of anything, Moon decides to become a fan.

Test this out - every time you see Moon made a post, try and guess what his opinion is before reading it. Then open the thread. It's uncanny.

First off awesome contribution to the topic of the thread.

Second you are way behind as this garbage has been tossed out before by many posters here and the same cherry picking of arguments is used ignoring the countless times I go along with the majority because it doesn't fit in with the BS narrative you try and make.

I didn't hate Bouw when with the Flames. I have defended him for a long time. Since Phaneuf was drafted and starred with the WJHC I have loved him not sure why I should turn on him just because he was traded. I defend Luongo against the garbage that is thrown out about him. I think he is a scummy diver and not a fan of his whinning at all but to pretend that it was his fault the Canucks lost when the team set a record for scoring futility or that he is a crap goalie is stupid.

Not sure what you CFL garbage is about since I have said this year that I have stopped following the league so you saying that I think it is awesome is odd.

As for the Heat I think the hate they got was BS. They were FA's and used their right to go to whatever team they wanted. After seeing the BS of other guys forcing their way to other teams and getting a pass (KG, Howard, KoME tried but everntually relented) it is again stupid to see the hate guys who did it the right way got.

You also forget to mention me praising the top two prospects in Baertschi and Monahan which the group here does, being one of the biggest voices against the Coilers and Canucks like most do and which would be the easiest against the group posting style, I defend and have defended Iginla a ton, supported Kipprusoff in the ridiculous arguments by some against him.

It is way off topic and a rehashed argument that I am sure people will bring up again and again but there is 0 merit to it and it is just people cherry picking arguments to fit what they want to see for some reason.

In regards to this thread I don't think saying that Bouwmeester is a good signing by the Blues is really going against Flames fans. Saying that he has been one of if not the best defenseman on the Flames since his signing isn't really going against Flames fans either. At best it is a 50/50 with many fans seeing that he wasn't nearly as bad as people try/tried to make him out to be.

[Enoch Root]

The lady doth protest too much, methinks