WSF (1) Chicago Blackhawks vs (7) Detroit Red Wings (Hawks win 4-3). - Page 8 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

ricardodw · 05-21-2013, 08:22 AM

The 7th or 8th seed in the west 2 pts from being an early golf team seems to be a great spot to make a run for the SC.

3 losses for the Hawks in 8 games in the playoffs after only 7 in the 48 game regular season.

The playoffs are a brand new season.

The Flames goal is to make the playoffs and then see what happens.

moon · 05-21-2013, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ricardodw

The Flames goal is to make the playoffs and then see what happens.

If that is their goal then it is an awful goal.

MisterJoji · 05-21-2013, 09:21 AM

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Originally Posted by PlayfulGenius

If I'm building a team from scratch, I take Toews over Malkin... And the fact he's not on the score sheet of late doesn't make me wrong, nor does it change my mind.

I take Crosby over him, of course, but not Malkin nor Stamkos... In fact, I can't think of any player off hand.

Seriously? You think his leadership/captaincy make him a better option than Malkin or Stamkos? That's nuts. I'd take either of those 2 and you can add Giroux (who seems to have just as much leadership as Toews), Tavares and maybe even Kopitar and Perry to a list of players I would take before Toews, if I was building a team from scratch.

Street Pharmacist · 05-21-2013, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

Seriously? You think his leadership/captaincy make him a better option than Malkin or Stamkos? That's nuts. I'd take either of those 2 and you can add Giroux (who seems to have just as much leadership as Toews), Tavares and maybe even Kopitar and Perry to a list of players I would take before Toews, if I was building a team from scratch.

Not me. Toews over anyone except Crosby. Stamkos doesn't help his team win imo

valo403 · 05-21-2013, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Not me. Toews over anyone except Crosby. Stamkos doesn't help his team win imo

I don't know that Stamkos doesn't help his team win, but I'd agree that Toews brings more to the table.

Street Pharmacist · 05-21-2013, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by valo403

I don't know that Stamkos doesn't help his team win, but I'd agree that Toews brings more to the table.

Sorry, should've clarified. Stamkos brings a one timer and a good shot to the table, but Toews brings much, much more

Wolven · 05-21-2013, 10:16 AM

Lotta talk about Toews and his poor offensive play. How about Kane and his poor defensive play? He was making a very good impression of Ovechkin's "Controller Disconnected" as he coasted back to his own zone to watch Datsuyk's beauty goal.

Either way, I hope the Wings can win it again at home and send this series to 3-1. Regardless of whether you are cheering for the Flames draft picks or for Iginla to win the cup, knocking out the Hawks early is good for us.

Erick Estrada · 05-21-2013, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Sorry, should've clarified. Stamkos brings a one timer and a good shot to the table, but Toews brings much, much more

I would still take Stamkos. Does anyone really think that Toews is good enough on his own to do anything with a bad team? The Hawks are absolutely stacked with talented players from the blueline out. Toews is part of the puzzle but he's not a guy that is nearly talented enough to carry a team on his own.

Street Pharmacist · 05-21-2013, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I would still take Stamkos. Does anyone really think that Toews is good enough on his own to do anything with a bad team? The Hawks are absolutely stacked with talented players from the blueline out. Toews is part of the puzzle but he's not a guy that is nearly talented enough to carry a team on his own.

Swap Stamkos for Toews and lightening get better while the Hawks get worse imo

valo403 · 05-21-2013, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I would still take Stamkos. Does anyone really think that Toews is good enough on his own to do anything with a bad team? The Hawks are absolutely stacked with talented players from the blueline out. Toews is part of the puzzle but he's not a guy that is nearly talented enough to carry a team on his own.

And you think Stamkos is?

Coach · 05-21-2013, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I would still take Stamkos. Does anyone really think that Toews is good enough on his own to do anything with a bad team? The Hawks are absolutely stacked with talented players from the blueline out. Toews is part of the puzzle but he's not a guy that is nearly talented enough to carry a team on his own.

Stamkos finished right behind his teammate, St Louis, for the Art Ross, and the team STILL had a lottery pick.

Toews, Toews and more Toews. (Although Stamkos would only be a spot or two behind IMO).

PlayfulGenius · 05-21-2013, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

Seriously? You think his leadership/captaincy make him a better option than Malkin or Stamkos? That's nuts. I'd take either of those 2 and you can add Giroux (who seems to have just as much leadership as Toews), Tavares and maybe even Kopitar and Perry to a list of players I would take before Toews, if I was building a team from scratch.

That's fine...my team would beat your team, is all

PlayfulGenius · 05-21-2013, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I would still take Stamkos. Does anyone really think that Toews is good enough on his own to do anything with a bad team? The Hawks are absolutely stacked with talented players from the blueline out. Toews is part of the puzzle but he's not a guy that is nearly talented enough to carry a team on his own.

Who said anything about carrying a team on his own? Any team built on one guy is destined for failure ... You're a Flames fan, right?

Erick Estrada · 05-21-2013, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlayfulGenius

Who said anything about carrying a team on his own? Any team built on one guy is destined for failure ... You're a Flames fan, right?

Well then lets look at the players on their own. Which player has more high end skills? Which player has better physical attributes? Which player has a better chance at getting in the HOF? Toews won't based on his his numbers that's for sure but Stamkos is putting up numbers that will get him in. You guys are really overrating Toews here.

Coach · 05-21-2013, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Well then lets look at the players on their own. Which player has more high end skills? Which player has better physical attributes? Which player has a better chance at getting in the HOF? Toews won't based on his his numbers that's for sure but Stamkos is putting up numbers that will get him in. You guys are really overrating Toews here.

I think you're overrating the ability to score and the advantage it brings to a team. Does Stamkos have more high-end skill and goal scoring ability than Toews? Yes, but not by as much as you seem to imply. Scoring goals means dick all if the other team scores more. Projecting HOF for players under 25 seems a bit ludicrous.

When Toews is struggling to score he helps his team in other ways. Stamkos doesn't seem to have developed that important ability (not yet anyway). Stamkos is a pure goal scorer and not much else at this point.

Disclaimer: Stamkos is a fantastic hockey player. Just wouldn't chose him over Toews when considering building a team from nothing. Itd be nice to have them both tho.

PlayfulGenius · 05-21-2013, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Well then lets look at the players on their own. Which player has more high end skills? Which player has better physical attributes? Which player has a better chance at getting in the HOF? Toews won't based on his his numbers that's for sure but Stamkos is putting up numbers that will get him in. You guys are really overrating Toews here.

I disagree ... I rate defensive acumen very highly... Ex. I think Datsyuk has been the best player in the NHL over the last 7-8 years or so... If he were 25 right now, he'd be my pick over Toews...maybe even over Crosby, I'm not sure.

Anyway, Toews has good offensive skills (#1C level) plus he's a premier penalty killer and good on face-offs, plus a great leader... He has the potential of being seen as Messier type player as he enters his prime, we'll see if that happens.

ricardodw · 05-21-2013, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moon

If that is their goal then it is an awful goal.

And LA should return their SC and start their re-build ASAP.

As it is this year LA were 2 losses and a tie away from missing the playoffs.

Did Anahiem have a great season??? How about St.L and Vancouver. .... They all had home ice advantage in the first round.... That is your goal for the Flames?

If Chicago goes down to the Wings in round 2 are they a success? Will everyone recall that won the president's ttrophy

Since the salary cap was put in place 7 years ago the President trophy winner played in the SC final twice and won it once.

Teams just making the playoffs..... Starting the playoffs on the road:

2012 LA 8th wins NJ 6 seed loses
2010 Phil 7th seed loses
2009 Pits tied 4/5th wins
2007 Ottawa 7th loses
2006 Edmonton 8th loses

so out of 14 SC finalists since the cap 6 had the primary goal (or result) of making the playoffs. as many teams scrapping in on the last day of the regular season have played in the SC final as those having won the President's trophy.

This year only 3 of 8 home seeds have made it through to the second round and one just made it because the Leafs are cursed.

What would make you happy to have the Flames accomplish??

Coach · 05-21-2013, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlayfulGenius

I disagree ... I rate defensive acumen very highly... Ex. I think Datsyuk has been the best player in the NHL over the last 7-8 years or so... If he were 25 right now, he'd be my pick over Toews...maybe even over Crosby, I'm not sure.

Anyway, Toews has good offensive skills (#1C level) plus he's a premier penalty killer and good on face-offs, plus a great leader... He has the potential of being seen as Messier type player as he enters his prime, we'll see if that happens.

Agree with all this, especially the Datsyuk point. But I view Toews more as a Sakic type player than Messier.

valo403 · 05-21-2013, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Well then lets look at the players on their own. Which player has more high end skills? Which player has better physical attributes? Which player has a better chance at getting in the HOF? Toews won't based on his his numbers that's for sure but Stamkos is putting up numbers that will get him in. You guys are really overrating Toews here.

Answers in order:

1. Stamkos
2. Stamkos
3. Both will almost certainly be in

And yet, none of those questions were the one asked. If I'm building a team tomorrow there's no way I take Stamkos over Toews.

Erick Estrada · 05-21-2013, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlayfulGenius

Anyway, Toews has good offensive skills (#1C level) plus he's a premier penalty killer and good on face-offs, plus a great leader... He has the potential of being seen as Messier type player as he enters his prime, we'll see if that happens.

Nobody is debating his overall skills. He's a great player. He's just not what I would call an elite hockey player. He's like a more skilled Stephane Yelle which is great because you need those guys to win but I have a problem putting him in the same sentence as Crosby, Malkin, St. Louis, Stamkos, etc. Heck even Tavares is turning into a better player.