The draft lottery is still a joke

[TheGrimm]

Originally Posted by Walter Reed

The greatest reason for many here on CP wishing that the draft would somehow change is the fact that the Oilers have been the benefactors of the existant system. PERIOD.
Had the Flames selecting first the past three years this thread would not exist on CP. Honest question; put the Flames in Florida's place this year and how many here would be seeking a system change that would decrease the Flames chance of selecting 1st?

I disagree, the idea of tanking is revolting to me and is such an ethical slap in the face that I am embarrassed for the league and the teams that are doing it. Taking away incentive to win each and every game is just asking for this to occur though, and the league should be taking note as the "race" for the bottom of the league is almost getting as much airtime as the race for the playoffs in this neck of the woods.

Gross.

[cubistcastle]

Originally Posted by IamNotKenKing

Ummmm, they've been winning. Defeats the tanking argument 100%.

The players themselves don't try to lose, but management makes moves to weaken the team and slide down the standings. It's still tanking. It's extremely naive of some of you to think that Feaster is calling up all of these Heat players purely as a sort of mini-training camp for next year. Flames management is trying to lose right now - end of story.

[Walter Reed]

Originally Posted by TheGrimm

I disagree, the idea of tanking is revolting to me and is such an ethical slap in the face that I am embarrassed for the league and the teams that are doing it. Taking away incentive to win each and every game is just asking for this to occur though, and the league should be taking note as the "race" for the bottom of the league is almost getting as much airtime as the race for the playoffs in this neck of the woods.

Gross.

Who said anything about tanking and which teams are doing it? Are Florida players willfully tanking ....... ?
I for one don't believe any team's players tanks deliberately, .... professional athlete's aren't wired that way or they wouldn't have achieved the goal of playing professional sports. Players have been encouraged since childhood to try their best.
Fans may wish that their team tanks once they recognize they are going nowhere near the playoffs but I don't see players losing intentionally. Organizational management might recognize that a change in direction is obviously necessary at a certain point during the season & sell off assets for futures. MLB is the clearest example of teams doing so but players tanking, no.

[cubistcastle]

Moving the draft rankings to deadline day would only partially fix the problem because there would still be a handful of teams that realize they aren't going anywhere early on and simply try to tank before the deadline instead of later on. We would probably see fewer teams going that route, though.

[Iggy3x]

Originally Posted by neo45

They should have a lottery for EACH of the top 5 picks, so even finishing last would only guarantee the 6th pick. Fixes the tanking problem but also guarantees that bad teams get high picks, which is the point

I like Neo's idea of only guaranteeing the top 6. But that's still too high of a guarantee, I think top 8 should be the case and have the teams that finished from 1 to 8 all have EQUAL opportunity for the number 1 pick and not weighted like it is currently.

[FlamesAddiction]

The thing that bugs me is that with parity now, and with loser points creating standings parity (not the same as true parity), there is often little or no real difference between a team with say 60 points and a team with 70 poiints, yet their draft positions can be quite different. To me, this actually makes the draft lottery system useless for (or in fact counter to) parity and just a "reward" system. It's not like in the old days when 10 or 15 points in the standings actually meant something.

I don't like the idea of getting rid of the draft, but just the way the top picks are handed out. I would actually prefer a 3 tiered system. Have one lottery for the bottom 10 teams, giving them all an equal shot of drafting 1st through 10th, then have another lottery for the 11-20 teams, then another for the 21-30 place team.

[TheGrimm]

Originally Posted by cubistcastle

Moving the draft rankings to deadline day would only partially fix the problem because there would still be a handful of teams that realize they aren't going anywhere early on and simply try to tank before the deadline instead of later on. We would probably see fewer teams going that route, though.

I think it would take some serious balls as a GM to try to tank early in the season and then try to win into a playoff position after deadline day. I can't see any organization risking it. It could happen yea, but if they DO manage to make the playoffs they are simply removed from the lottery... It's a win/win. The only scenario is one where they tank early, miss the playoffs and still get a high draft pick, even though they finished 9th in the West for example... but really, they missed the playoffs so they already lost out on that opportunity.

I mean, there are challenges, it's far from perfect but it's a far sight better than the mess I am watching these last few weeks.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Walter Reed

The greatest reason for many here on CP wishing that the draft would somehow change is the fact that the Oilers have been the benefactors of the existing system. PERIOD.
Had it been the Flames selecting first the past three years this thread would not exist on CP. Honest question; put the Flames in Florida's place this year and how many here would be advocating for a system change that would diminish the Flames chance of selecting 1st?

I disagree, I for one do believe the Oilers are taking advantage of the system and they are now coming back for more. The Draft wasn't set up just to help the Edmonton Oilers every year because they suck. Why do you think they keep using different coaching/management puppets so no one has to take responsibility for sucking the way they do. The Draft should help teams that need it most not just one team that continues to sucks every year.

On the subject of tanking, just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just because Vancouver pretends they don't embellish doesn't mean they don't do it.

[TheGrimm]

Originally Posted by Walter Reed

Who said anything about tanking? Are Florida players willfully tanking ....... ?
I for one don't believe any team's players tanks deliberately, .... professional athlete's aren't wired that way or they wouldn't have achieved the goal of playing professional sports. Players have been encouraged since childhood to try their best.
Fans may wish that their team tanks once they recognize they are going nowhere near the playoffs but I don't see players losing intentionally. Organizational management might recognize that a change in direction is obviously necessary at a certain point during the season & sell off assets for futures. MLB is the clearest example of teams doing so but players tanking, no.

Yea, you were right, I jumped to the conclusion you were referring to "tanking" when it looks like you were not. I tend to agree with you the players don't tank but I think it's in part related to the fact that they are in a performance driven industry and that racking up a few points at the end of a crappy season can still net you more income in future years. I am sure there is still compete, and it varies player to player. I don't doubt these guys have pride, that is why I am talking about trying to remove the disincentive to perform from the game.

There should be NO reason a team might foreseeably want to lose hockey games. It's no fun to watch as a fan, and it's not fair to the teams in a dogfight for the last playoff spot when another team is playing the likes of Colorado, Edmonton and Nashville to close out a season (just an example).

[valo403]

Originally Posted by TheGrimm

I disagree, the idea of tanking is revolting to me and is such an ethical slap in the face that I am embarrassed for the league and the teams that are doing it. Taking away incentive to win each and every game is just asking for this to occur though, and the league should be taking note as the "race" for the bottom of the league is almost getting as much airtime as the race for the playoffs in this neck of the woods.

Gross.

Interestingly enough the team at the bottom, Florida, was pretty pumped to pull out that big win over the Rangers.

[itsmagic]

The basic flaw in the post by the OP is that there is no real evidence demonstrating that 'tanking' exists in the current NHL. All we have is a collective opinion based upon fan observation biases and fan conjecture, ie "Since the Oilers selected first overall three years in a row, (and I hate the Oilers) it is obvious that they purposely 'tanked' each year to ensure a high lottery pick."

If any one has a link that proves that 'tanking' is a real problem, I would love to see it.

While the draft lottery reformat to allow each non-playoff team a chance at the first overall pick is welcome, it will not prevent the Oilers from selecting first overall again should they win the lottery. However, it would almost be entertaining to see the social media uproar from such a result.

[Jason14h]

I disagree, I for one do believe the Oilers are taking advantage of the system and they are now coming back for more. The Draft wasn't set up just to help the Edmonton Oilers every year because they suck. Why do you think they keep using different coaching/management puppets so no one has to take responsibility for sucking the way they do. The Draft should help teams that need it most not just one team that continues to sucks every year.

If you believe the Oilers are trying to loose I have a bridge to sell you. The loose because they have a poorly put together team lacking a lot of required NHL pieces. (IE THEY SUCK)

They have been spending money and trying to improve. They are just a bad team

[Walter Reed]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

I disagree, I for one do believe the Oilers are taking advantage of the system and they are now coming back for more. The Draft wasn't set up just to help the Edmonton Oilers every year because they suck. Why do you think they keep using different coaching/management puppets so no one has to take responsibility for sucking the way they do. The Draft should help teams that need it most not just one team that continues to sucks every year.

On the subject of tanking, just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just because Vancouver pretends they don't embellish doesn't mean they don't do it.

How are the Oilers "taking advantage of the system" ....? Please elaborate how they are doing so .....?
To point at Edmonton changing management and coaches ..... hello .... the Flames haven't exactly been paragons of stability either.
Lastly, just because you believe the Oilers are tanking or that the Canucks embellish doesn't make it factual either.
If you want to believe any team is tanking on purpose because it meshes with your bias or perception, by all means do so. Fans wishes, thoughts, hopes or desires have zero bearing on the activities of teams.
If you are hoping I'm going to somehow defend the failure to improve on the part of my team, sorry I'm not. They have fallin far short of expectations, and obviously someone, Katz or Lowe or both felt the same and that is why a change was made. Will they they improve .....? I can hope, but that's all any fan of any team can do.

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by Walter Reed

The greatest reason for many here on CP wishing that the draft would somehow change is the fact that the Oilers have been the benefactors of the existing system. PERIOD.
Had it been the Flames selecting first the past three years this thread would not exist on CP. Honest question; put the Flames in Florida's place this year and how many here would be advocating for a system change that would diminish the Flames chance of selecting 1st?

Nailed it Walter. This is it in a nutshell and Flames fans are even more sickened this year when the team sucks yet again, trades it's two top players and still can't get a top pick. This thread is just pure jealously.

[Walter Reed]

Originally Posted by St. Pats

Nailed it Walter. This is it in a nutshell and Flames fans are even more sickened this year when the team sucks yet again, trades it's two top players and still can't get a top pick. This thread is just pure jealously.

Hmmmm .... I wouldn't say Flame fans are jealous, .... after all who would be jealous of a club that has been losing as often as the Oilers have these past 3-4 years. I'm sure Flame fans wouldn't wish that for themselves. No, I believe that while Flame fans love seeing the Oilers continue to lose, they dislike seeing their most hated rival benefit by selecting 1st and theoretically selecting the best available player and possibly improving. If it were Tampa, New Jersey or the Islanders picking 1st 3 in a row, while I doubt they would be cheering, they wouldn't be as vociferous in their distain either. It's called rivalry ....

[valo403]

Originally Posted by St. Pats

Nailed it Walter. This is it in a nutshell and Flames fans are even more sickened this year when the team sucks yet again, trades it's two top players and still can't get a top pick. This thread is just pure jealously.

Jealous of what? Not being the laughing stock of the league? Not being so god awful that picking first is just considered an annual tradition? Not spending every year talking about how you're building something special only to see it fall apart yet again? Lots to be jealous of there.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by itsmagic

The basic flaw in the post by the OP is that there is no real evidence demonstrating that 'tanking' exists in the current NHL. All we have is a collective opinion based upon fan observation biases and fan conjecture, ie "Since the Oilers selected first overall three years in a row, (and I hate the Oilers) it is obvious that they purposely 'tanked' each year to ensure a high lottery pick."

If any one has a link that proves that 'tanking' is a real problem, I would love to see it.

While the draft lottery reformat to allow each non-playoff team a chance at the first overall pick is welcome, it will not prevent the Oilers from selecting first overall again should they win the lottery. However, it would almost be entertaining to see the social media uproar from such a result.

Not sure what asking for a link that proves tanking is a problem will do when that's pretty much what is being discussed in the thread. Some people have mentioned that when teams don't have much to play for as it is easy for some teams to potentially take on the loser mentality once they are out of the playoffs. The Oilers are a prime example.

In march they won 6 games beating the following teams scoring 3 or more goals.

EDM (6) - CHI (5)
EDM (4) - COL (0)
NSH (2) - EDM (3)
EDM (3) - STL (0)
CBJ (4) - EDM (6)
VAN (0) - EDM (4)

Whats more they never had one single game in all March when they only scored only one goal. However they were shut out 3 times. Lets look at April

They registered 3 wins 2 against Calgary one against COL all by scores of 4-1, 8-2 and and 4-1 while every single loss except one against MIN 5-3 in April they have score 1 goal less. So in 8 games the Oilers have

EDM (0) - VAN (4)
EDM (1) - LAK (4)
EDM (1) - ANA (2)
PHX (3) - EDM (1)
CGY (4) - EDM (1)
MIN (5) - EDM (3)
ANA (3) - EDM (1)
ANA (3) - EDM (0)

Now either the Oilers are tanking, not trying or they have mastered the art of losing. There is not one single game in March where they only scored 1 goal.

[St. Pats]

Originally Posted by Walter Reed

Hmmmm .... I wouldn't say Flame fans are jealous, .... after all who would be jealous of a club that has been losing as often as the Oilers have these past 3-4 years. I'm sure Flame fans wouldn't wish that for themselves. No, I believe that fans dislike seeing their most hated rival benefit by selecting 1st and theoretically selecting the best available player. If it were Tampa, New Jersey or the Islanders picking 1st 3 in a row, while I doubt they would be cheering, they wouldn't be as vociferous in their distain either. It's called rivalry ....

Jealous the Oilers have sucked and got top picks or dislike them getting the top picks. However you want to put it the fact that both teams have sucked for years and they at least have got something out of it is the root cause.

[Hockey Fan #751]

The whole "tanking" thing is hogwash. I'm sure the Oilers could have rolled over Anaheim on Sunday and Monday if they were trying. Good thing they weren't so they could get that Top 5 pick!

Oilers play Chicago tonight. If they lose, will it be because of their "master plan" of tanking games? I bet they win tonight anyway since they always beat Chicago.

[Walter Reed]

Originally Posted by valo403

Jealous of what? Not being the laughing stock of the league? Not being so god awful that picking first is just considered an annual tradition? Not spending every year talking about how you're building something special only to see it fall apart yet again? Lots to be jealous of there.

Well in fairness, the national media, might be accused of using that "building something special up there" phrase but it's Flame fans who use that matrix the most, certainly not Oiler fans on CP. Are Oil fans excited about the young players...? Yup, but what else have they had to be excited about or look forward to ....?