[News] Friedman: Feaster/Flames are not going to blow it up

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by browna

Or, they like it when the Flames win, which is what you are (or should be) hoping for every game, and not like it when they don't. On top of that come here and have to wade thread through thread of doom and gloom and people telling them what and how to think.

Simple as that, nothing to do with your definition of " dealing with reality" and scolding them for not having the same outlook as you.

Isn't "scolding people for not having the same outlook as others" what almost all the "positive thinkers" in here do on a daily basis. Rediculous claims of "not a real fan" "go cheer for another team" unless you drink from the kool aid fountain of Flames optimisim, despite 8 years since a playoff victory, 3 straight years of no playoffs and a team that has currently shown no signs of anything changing half way through this shortened season?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by browna

Or, they like it when the Flames win, which is what you are (or should be) hoping for every game, and not like it when they don't. On top of that come here and have to wade thread through thread of doom and gloom and people telling them what and how to think.

Simple as that, nothing to do with your definition of " dealing with reality" and scolding them for not having the same outlook as you.

I hope for the best which is wins but I understand most nights it's probably not in the cards and losing is always frustrating but losing the way the Flames organization is extremely frustrating because we know there's no help coming on the horizon and in fact the team is trending downwards.

The difference is that I don't get mad at people for being positive. People like you get upset when people like be bring up the real issues. A lot of you don't like me because I've was saying the same stuff years ago and the team has followed the path I said they would which has made it difficult for any of you to stick it to me because I've been right. However this really isn't about who's right or wrong. It's about the Flames doing the right thing. If the Flames do the right thing and trade Iggy, Kipper, or whatever and draft multiple first round talents and pick up a prospect or two nobody will be more happy or positive going into the 2013/2014 season than me I can assure you.

[Tinordi]

Don't worry we're only three pieces away from contending: A franchise goalie, a franchise center and a number 1 defender.

These are the delusions we're starting to see from the increasingly desperate fans.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Isn't "scolding people for not having the same outlook as others" what almost all the "positive thinkers" in here do on a daily basis. Rediculous claims of "not a real fan" "go cheer for another team" unless you drink from the kool aid fountain of Flames optimisim, despite 8 years since a playoff victory, 3 straight years of no playoffs and a team that has currently shown no signs of anything changing half way through this shortened season?

It comes from both sides and is annoying either way.

But, as this page shows, there was good constructive conversation for a while, until a few certain people showed up

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Don't worry we're only three pieces away from contending: A franchise goalie, a franchise center and a number 1 defender.

These are the delusions we're starting to see from the increasingly desperate fans.

In their defense, if we got those three things we would be a lot closer to contending.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It comes from both sides and is annoying either way.

But, as this page shows, there was good constructive conversation for a while, until a few certain people showed up

Fair, though I'd say at this point in the Flames lifecycle it's actually more annoying from the postivie side, as the overwhealming evidence supports that those reamaing in the "all is well boat" are simply doing so with little fact or reason to feel that way.

First couple of years post lock out, I'd say it was more annoying to hear folks be on the negative side, as there was still pretty good reason and evidence to be optimistic, now, you're really taking a leap of faith if people think this team can turn it around with minor tweaks and re-tooling.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Fair, though I'd say at this point in the Flames lifecycle it's actually more annoying from the postivie side, as the overwhealming evidence supports that those reamaing in the "all is well boat" are simply doing so with little fact or reason to feel that way.

First couple of years post lock out, I'd say it was more annoying to hear folks be on the negative side, as there was still pretty good reason and evidence to be optimistic, now, you're really taking a leap of faith if people think this team can turn it around with minor tweaks and re-tooling.

I would completely agree except for the arrogance and vitriol that permeates from the 'negative' camp.

[Tinordi]

Arrogance I get, many of us have been saying the same thing for years only to be derided for those opinions. Now that we're right a certain degree of arrogance is warranted, you need to be responsible for your opinions. Vitriol though, I don't see much of that honestly.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I would completely agree except for the arrogance and vitriol that permeates from the 'negative' camp.

I would say it is much worse from the "positive camp" but we will likely go back and forth and not agree ever.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I would completely agree except for the arrogance and vitriol that permeates from the 'negative' camp.

While each poster is obviously different and there are good and bad ones on either side of the argument, you and I must be reading very different web sites if you find the "negative camp" more arrogant and vitriol than the "positive camp" on agrogate.

[nik-]

One thing the "Lets Move On" side rarely does is accuse people of not being fans

[browna]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I hope for the best which is wins but I understand most nights it's probably not in the cards and losing is always frustrating but losing the way the Flames organization is extremely frustrating because we know there's no help coming on the horizon and in fact the team is trending downwards.

The difference is that I don't get mad at people for being positive. People like you get upset when people like be bring up the real issues. A lot of you don't like me because I've was saying the same stuff years ago and the team has followed the path I said they would which has made it difficult for any of you to stick it to me because I've been right. However this really isn't about who's right or wrong. It's about the Flames doing the right thing. If the Flames do the right thing and trade Iggy, Kipper, or whatever and draft multiple first round talents and pick up a prospect or two nobody will be more happy or positive going into the 2013/2014 season than me I can assure you.

Many casual people around the city just enjoy the team winning. Sure, not happy when losing, but that's not being people simpleminded and "aloof to reality" as you intimate, or people not wanting to deal with it because they're not smart enough to figure out why or see the bigger picture. Issues are there, most people know there's lots of issues and its complicated, its just people would rather focus on the positive for something they've got nothing except some emotional equity invested it.

Certainly no one needs to not only have more negativity in our lives to worry about, we certainly don't need to constantly day in and day out predict/analyze/dissect that external negativity, or be told by someone that we should be reminded how bad things are or are going to be, for a hockey team that really doesn't matter day to day, in the bigger picture of people's day to day lives either.

As for the bolded part, many ways to skin a cat. I hope that's not the one and only "reality" (if that's what you're trying to say) of what you think it will take to put the franchise on the right path. Iginla's still the best forward out there and the replacement won't bring nearly as much as what he means to the Flames on the ice, nevermind the external circumstances.

Kiprusoff gets the benefit of the doubt until its proven that one of the Euro goalies like Ramo is the real deal, and that's just not avoiding reality; until we have a bigger sample then 7 or 8 games, after a non existent training camp (he never was the guy to need to work hard in the offseason, and the training camp got him ready in a regular season)and first injury in a decade to deal with, after his last decade of solid play, you can't yet write him off. That, and how many contenders are going to give up much for a backup (which is what he'd be on a team that is already a contender, barring injury) at the trade deadline?

If it were up to me and it was time to move a top player if the Flames are sellers in the next 3.5 weeks, Bouwmeester and/or to a lesser extent Giordano would be the reluctant targets that could fetch the most at this moment in time as far as pics and prospects.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Igottago

What do you want, a lynch mob? You do realize the the trade deadline is just around the corner and these guys are probably working, not worrying about having a discussion with the fans. Now isn't the time for that.

The management team is not without a share of blame for the state of the team but let's be realistic, they aren't going to come out and share their strategy with you. I'm sure they realize this is a crucial time for the organization.

I for one will wait to see what happens in the next 3 weeks and then make my mind up on how they've done. Until then I have no choice but to wait and see how things proceed.

I do actually.

I know I've sat through 2 trade deadlines where I feel they should have been sellers and watched the team do nothing but flounder. Do we actually know that the Flames aren't going to make a move? No, but we do know what this team has had a history of doing in the past and all signs point to it repeating itself. Management hasn't proven to us that they are capable of making the right decisions.

This team needs an army of fans screaming to the point of ruining King, Feaster and Edward's ears for life, to let them know that we simply aren't going to sit here an accept status quo that is being shoved down our throats because they don't feel the fans or their own egos can "handle it".

[J epworth]

The reason I don't subscribe to the "blow it up" camp is that creating a fire sale of our assets, especially around trade deadline day, is tainted by emotional trades that rarely ever work out well.

There's no reason to blow it up to get a top five pick, when we are already on our way to getting a top five pick with the assets we have. I believe it would be a lot better if we make one or 2 good moves to get another 1st rounder, and then still end up with an injection of young talent while still having players that can make up a complete team.

Some of the suggestions here are so over the top that you have to assume they just believe what works in NHL 2013 works in real life as well. You don't trade away half your team an expect any results by next year. You don't build a lineup that is 75 percent rookies and 2nd year pros and expect anything expect terrible results.

[Flash Walken]

MOD EDIT: Not what this site is about.
MOD EDIT AGAIN: Sarcasm detector may have missed this one.

[RedMileDJ]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

He doesn't even need to be fired - just give him a different corporate position.

But the Flames need someone in charge of hockey operations that can instill a proper team vision

But who or what is that vision? The only people that know that, are the owners. What do THEY want from this team? Hopefully it's a Stanley Cup. A proper team vision can be many different things, but what's the "right one" and who get's the final say? I would hope they listen to the fans so they can put something together that pleases everyone.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by J epworth kendal

The reason I don't subscribe to the "blow it up" camp is that creating a fire sale of our assets, especially around trade deadline day, is tainted by emotional trades that rarely ever work out well.

There's no reason to blow it up to get a top five pick, when we are already on our way to getting a top five pick with the assets we have. I believe it would be a lot better if we make one or 2 good moves to get another 1st rounder, and then still end up with an injection of young talent while still having players that can make up a complete team.

I am probably as negative as it comes when analyzing this team and I am fairly confident that we will not end up with a top 5 pick if we stay the course. This team has 9th-12th place written all over it. I'm all but certain that they will string some wings together just before the trade deadline, hang around 9th place and then finish the season just outside of a playoff spot. It's the same way that the players in Edmonton find last place acceptable. Flames personnel find almost making the playoffs acceptable as well. Same culture of losing has set in here, ours is just to a lesser degree.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Red-Mile-DJ

But who or what is that vision? The only people that know that, are the owners. What do THEY want from this team? Hopefully it's a Stanley Cup. A proper team vision can be many different things, but what's the "right one" and who get's the final say? I would hope they listen to the fans so they can put something together that pleases everyone.

That is a good question.

It seemed to me that there was very little meddling from ownership until the last few years when things started to go wrong. I believe that ownership would stay out of the way if they trusted that their team was in good hands.

Ownership seemed to become visible ever since the Phaneuf trade and I don't think that's a coincidence. With a John Davidson type in charge, someone with a vision (that they would obviously have sold to ownership), I think ownership steps back again.

As for listening to the fans, I hope very much that they don't do that - and I doubt that they will.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by browna

Many casual people around the city just enjoy the team winning. Sure, not happy when losing, but that's not being people simpleminded and "aloof to reality" as you intimate, or people not wanting to deal with it because they're not smart enough to figure out why or see the bigger picture. Issues are there, most people know there's lots of issues and its complicated, its just people would rather focus on the positive for something they've got nothing except some emotional equity invested it.

Certainly no one needs to not only have more negativity in our lives to worry about, we certainly don't need to constantly day in and day out predict/analyze/dissect that external negativity, or be told by someone that we should be reminded how bad things are or are going to be, for a hockey team that really doesn't matter day to day, in the bigger picture of people's day to day lives either.

As for the bolded part, many ways to skin a cat. I hope that's not the one and only "reality" (if that's what you're trying to say) of what you think it will take to put the franchise on the right path. Iginla's still the best forward out there and the replacement won't bring nearly as much as what he means to the Flames on the ice, nevermind the external circumstances.

Kiprusoff gets the benefit of the doubt until its proven that one of the Euro goalies like Ramo is the real deal, and that's just not avoiding reality; until we have a bigger sample then 7 or 8 games, after a non existent training camp (he never was the guy to need to work hard in the offseason, and the training camp got him ready in a regular season)and first injury in a decade to deal with, after his last decade of solid play, you can't yet write him off. That, and how many contenders are going to give up much for a backup (which is what he'd be on a team that is already a contender, barring injury) at the trade deadline?

If it were up to me and it was time to move a top player if the Flames are sellers in the next 3.5 weeks, Bouwmeester and/or to a lesser extent Giordano would be the reluctant targets that could fetch the most at this moment in time as far as pics and prospects.

The team is a point out of 30th so I simply don't understand this argument that they will tank if they trade players like Iginla, Kipper, Giordano, etc. The only change can be for the better as the team is staring at the basement as is and I think too many paint this doom and gloom picture of a Iginla/Kipperless Calgary Flames. Fans will move on without those players just fine as they did other HOF Flames.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I would completely agree except for the arrogance and vitriol that permeates from the 'negative' camp.

You don't know what vitriol means.