Boy killed after falling into African wild dog exhibit

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by T@T

Your explanation on parenting sounds like you read a book on the subject...not lived it!

I take that as a complement considering I've never read a parenting book. Just goes to show how my parenting skills and values are in line with people educated in the subject I guess.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Wormius

I don't know if the bystander effect applies here. There is a distinct difference between that and using your better judgement to not possibly jump to your own death to try to maybe save somebody who is already dead themselves.

Can you imagine jumping in to save somebody, and just managing to knock yourself out instead when you land? After would-be rescuer #5 needs rescuing it starts to lose its purpose.

Of course you could also argue is it even worth risking an adult life, possibly the breadwinner of a family, to save a 2 or 3 year old?

I agree, I don't think it's quite the same thing. Personally I'm view myself as somewhat immune to the bystander effect, I've helped out in tense situations on the train or in hospitals when everyone else is scared, or doing their best to mind their business. And yet I can't see myself even feeling like maybe I should jump into the dog pen. Even a little.

And just looking at the facts of the situation here, there is a much more real cause for concern of injury or death, while having a very small likelihood of being able to help.

Bystander effect usually covers situations where people know logically that they should help, but are held back psychologically because of mob mentality, not wanting to single themselves out, and belief that someone else may do it, so why risk themselves? Also having the knowledge that what is happening is wrong. This is such a weird and dangerous situation, with no moral spin (except for the decisions of the mother) that I'm not sure the same feelings or thinking applies. Not to mention, usually in bystander effect situations there is plenty of time to make a decision to do the right thing. This happened very quickly did it not?

Actually a better way to use bystander effect in this situation would be if many people saw the mother stand her child up on the railing and did nothing, deciding instead to mind their own business when they knew it was probably a very bad idea. Not wanting to cause a scene, be reprimanded etc. Though the speed at which this all happened probably makes that inapplicable too. Though it would be a better example.

[Russic]

The bystander effect has a shaky background, given that the Kitty Genovese murder (which is the most popular example) had some heavily distorted facts. That being said, the effect isn't total garbage and you do see instances of it from time to time. I do believe that most people who say they'd react in a certain situation don't actually do it when the situation presents itself. Some do, but certainly not all.

I have a 50-60 lbs lab who had a fairly bad preoccupation with tennis balls. Not sure what brought it about, but when we got him he was around 8, and just holding a tennis ball near him was literally risking the bones in your hand. One day while playing fetch with one of those plastic chuck-it things, he lunged at it and ripped it out of my hands. I figured I'd just go pull it out of his mouth. I didn't really have the tools and experience that i have today to help me retrieve something from his jaws. What transpired next was about 3-5 minutes of absolute useless pulling and energy exertion. I didn't get hurt or anything, but it was very clear that I wasn't getting the chuck-it back until he was done with it. The harder I tried to force it out of him, the stronger his hold became.

Prey instinct is a hell of a thing. You aren't going to pull *actual* prey from a single dog of that size. 2 or 3 of them? Seems nearly impossible to me. 11? We like to think we could have helped that kid, but I think he had a 0% survival chance as soon as he went over the edge.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Has anyone been to a zoo lately? It's pretty much 90% moms with strollers. It would take you half an hour just to find 6 men, never mind 6 men willing to drop down to take on Fido.

You know, I've always thought that zoos needed a good pub. You know, once dad pays for admission he can sit down and watch the game.

You could put in video monitors showing the animals so he could tell his nagging wife and kids that he saw all the same animals they did, but he did it while throwing back pints and nachos.

Brilliant. And, to Table 5's point, all the men would be in a place where you could find them quickly if you needed them. And they'd be sufficiently lubricated to contemplate curbstomping some pooches.

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

Wasn't the one dog shot because they couldn't chase it off safely? What makes people think a bunch of cowboys hopping the fence could save the day?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Super Nintendo Chalmers

Wasn't the one dog shot because they couldn't chase it off safely? What makes people think a bunch of cowboys hopping the fence could save the day?

Well that idea is borderline insane to begin with. Dont even get me started on the fact that the zoo's male demographic is almost exclusively older, settled, sub-urban, middle class fathers.

I am a soft white guy, I could probably take one dog. If I got a lucky shot in. With a shovel. And its a Dachshund.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Locke

You know, I've always thought that zoos needed a good pub. You know, once dad pays for admission he can sit down and watch the game.

You could put in video monitors showing the animals so he could tell his nagging wife and kids that he saw all the same animals they did, but he did it while throwing back pints and nachos.

Brilliant. And, to Table 5's point, all the men would be in a place where you could find them quickly if you needed them. And they'd be sufficiently lubricated to contemplate curbstomping some pooches.

I'm going to be chuckling about that all day!

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Super Nintendo Chalmers

Wasn't the one dog shot because they couldn't chase it off safely? What makes people think a bunch of cowboys hopping the fence could save the day?

Not to mention, but these are also animals that were raised in captivity and as such, probably do not have a natural fear of humans. Sometimes there is an advantage to chasing off wild animals in that they fear what they are not used to. Animals that are accustomed to people are often more dangerous.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Super Nintendo Chalmers

Wasn't the one dog shot because they couldn't chase it off safely? What makes people think a bunch of cowboys hopping the fence could save the day?

I was going to stay out of this thread for good but I just can't.

Safety and Surviving are two completely different things. I never once said that jumping in would be "safe".

And as for the video argument (where my last post left off). I see zero relationship between what a pack of zoo dogs would do if confronted by a group of human males and what they do when they chase one helpless animal with zero way of defending itself besides running. Humans have 4 useful limbs (unlike the dog), a mouth and a distinct size and strength advantage. Add in the fact that these dogs are in a zoo and most likely consider humans as leaders (like there keepers) and thats why I think (and as mentioned earlier, here come the "what if's") if:

- The baby was able to survive the fall and there was a delay as to when the animals noticed the baby (were they all by the railing? or were they spread out)

- Enough willing guys around

Things might have played out a lot differently.

Thats it. I'm not posting in this thread anymore. Thats my case. Agree to disagree.

[blankall]

People here need to relax. Everything probably happened so quickly, there was no time to react. The kid hit the ground. There was some shouting, and by the time anyone capable of doing anything actually looked over, the kid was already a mess of intestine and bone. These dogs are kept on a limited diet. Anyone who has ever seen a group of dogs eat, knows how quickly they can devour food when in competition. Wild dogs woud have torn him apart in moments.

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

Originally Posted by polak

Humans have 4 useful limbs (unlike the dog), a mouth and a distinct size and strength advantage. Add in the fact that these dogs are in a zoo and most likely consider humans as leaders (like there keepers)

And yet a gun was still used.

Oh, and I disagree with the strength and mouth (are you serious?) advantage.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Super Nintendo Chalmers

Oh, and I disagree with the strength and mouth (are you serious?) advantage.

It has the highest bite force of any carnivore in the world.

[puckluck2]

Polak admitted to only jumping in the enclosure if it was his kid or sibling yet expects random strangers to jump in to save the day.

Not hypocritical at all.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Iginla

Polak admitted to only jumping in the enclosure if it was his kid or sibling yet expects random strangers to jump in to save the day.

Not hypocritical at all.

Did you ever find the episode of The First 48 where the let buddy off after shooting his friend?

[polak]

Originally Posted by Super Nintendo Chalmers

And yet a gun was still used.

Oh, and I disagree with the strength and mouth (are you serious?) advantage.

I never said we had a bite advantage. I know we don't have any where near their bite strength but we still have a bite (as opposed to that herbivore impala) and there is a definite strength advantage. The average wild dog weighs between 35 and 60 pounds, even a small guy has large a strength and size advantage. Also if you really want to go into it, we also have the advantage of our ability to grip things with our hands, knowledge of basic anatomy (weak spots like eyes, wind pipe, gut) ability to work together much better then a pack of dogs and our use of tools so even in a pit you could pick up a rock or stick.

To others, don't give me anecdotal stories about how you couldn't pull a ball out of your dogs mouth. One, you may not be able to get the ball out but you were probably pulling the dogs whole body and two, I seriously doubt anyone would trying using maximum force in anything while playing with their pet.

Originally Posted by Iginla

Polak admitted to only jumping in the enclosure if it was his kid or sibling yet expects random strangers to jump in to save the day.

Not hypocritical at all.

Read my posts?
I said repeatedly, in bold letters, that I didn't expect anyone to jump in. I just posed the question "what if" someone did.

Anyways like I said this is getting ridiculous.

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

It has the highest bite force of any carnivore in the world.

Humans? Because that's who he said had the advantage.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Did you ever find the episode of The First 48 where the let buddy off after shooting his friend?

Yes I did. Episode was 20 bucks/ family friends. You're more than welcome to go watch it.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by polak

I never said we had a bite advantage. I know we don't have any where near their bite strength but we still have a bite (as opposed to that herbivore impala) and there is a definite strength advantage. The average wild dog weighs between 35 and 60 pounds, even a small guy has large a strength and size advantage. Also if you really want to go into it, we also have one definite advantage in our ability to grip, knowledge of basic anatomy (weak spots like eyes, wind pipe) and use of tools so even in a pit you could pick up a rock or stick.

To others, don't give me anecdotal stories about how you couldn't pull a ball out of your dogs mouth. One, you may not be able to get the ball out but you were probably pulling the dogs whole body and two, I seriously doubt anyone would trying using maximum force in anything while playing with there pet.



Read my posts?
I said repeatedly, in bold letters, that I didn't expect anyone to jump in. I just posed the question "what if" someone did.

Anyways like I said this is getting ridiculous.

You should probably do some cursory research on what you're talking about. There's a reason that these animals are known to attack their prey at certain points. Guess what it is?

[Locke]

I'm claiming that its official at this point.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Super Nintendo Chalmers

Humans? Because that's who he said had the advantage.

Oops, mis-read you post. The Africian Wild Dog has the highest.