Jay Bouwmeester Appreciation Thread

[gilligans_off]

How are we better without him? Give your heads a shake. Given that he hasn't even missed a game for us your all just speculating that we would be better without him.

[Poe969]

Well we aren't good with him so what's the difference? Maybe we'd be better if the players we get for him in a trade help us more.

[Poe969]

And your just speculating we wouldn't be better without him. Since he's been here, have we made the playoffs?

[bubbsy]

Only way flames win a cup with bouwmeester is to go out and get a true #1 dman. Since that isn't happening, i hope they are able to utilize the asset and improve other areas of the roster.

[TangerZ]

Originally Posted by nik-

Based on what?

Let's not over exaggerate things here. Realistically if you take Bowmeester off our team last year, we're not even competing for a playoff spot. I shudder at the thought of Giodano being our number one D-man. The last 3 years have been extremely frustrating for all us Flames fans, but to have this board constantly throw one guy under the bus when there have been so many other glaring holes on the team is ridiculous. Special teams, face-offs, blown coverages, amount of odd man rushes, point blank opportunities, horrible second periods, inability to hold leads. These are things I look at that need improvement and it's not just Bowmeester that will fix these.

[nik-]

Well yeah, if you just take him off the team and don't replace him, but you do. And it's not just about his "minutes", if you look his effectiveness with those minutes, he's average on this team, so replacing him with another top 4 defenseman hurts us a lot less than people think.

If you just went back to 2011/2012 and removed him from the ice without anyone else stepping on to play, yes it would be a huge impact.

[Reanimate]

Oh yeah. Aquiring a good top 2 guy is pretty easy. Let's trade Bouwmeester and then just replace him. Wait, what's that you say? Find a good top pairing defenseman is next to impossible right now? What's that? We have a top 2 dman right now in Bouwmeester? Well let's just trade him for assets that can help us. Like a top pairing defenseman. Wait, say that again? Everyone is looking for a top pairing Dman? Well sweet, we can trade Bouwmeester for assets and then replace him with the many, non-existant top pairing Dmen that are available.

This is how this Bouwmeester conversation has been going now for the last year or so on this site. Round and round and round the ###### merry go round.

I want to stab my eyes out.

[nik-]

The question people are asking is "what makes Jay Bouwmeester a top 2 Dman?" If you can't answer it with anything more than "most minutes" and "plays against top lines" then there is a problem. There has to be some quantifiable data to show him as a top defender and it's just not there. So before you stab your eyes out, maybe answer that.

You're calling people ######s and yet adding nothing

[Reanimate]

Originally Posted by nik-

The question people are asking is "what makes Jay Bouwmeester a top 2 Dman?" If you can't answer it with anything more than "most minutes" and "plays against top lines" then there is a problem. There has to be some quantifiable data to show him as a top defender and it's just not there. So before you stab your eyes out, maybe answer that.

Its been discussed ad nauseum in this and the other thread. If Bouwmeester is not a top pairing guy, why is Detroit, Philly and St. Louis reportedly asking about him? You think any team wants a 6 mill a year 3/4 defenseman? No, they want him because he is a top 2 guy.

[nik-]

Actually, it's been discussed ad naseum, but it hasn't been shown ad naseum why he's a legit top 2. There is a difference between saying he's something and being able to show he's something.

[Reanimate]

Originally Posted by nik-

Actually, it's been discussed ad naseum, but it hasn't been shown ad naseum why he's a legit top 2. There is a difference between saying he's something and being able to show he's something.

And why haven't you explained why there is a market for a so called mediocre high paid 2nd pairing dman? If he is so terrible why are very good teams wanting to acquire him?

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Reanimate

And why haven't you explained why there is a market for a so called mediocre high paid 2nd pairing dman? If he is so terrible why are very good teams wanting to acquire him?

Because those teams are desperate for any kind of defenseman with NHL experience right now and because they still see that he has the tools to be a top pairing D man. What they don't realize is he has no toolbox to bring the goods.

[nik-]

Where is this market other than the rumour mill? If a good return was on the table for the guy he'd be gone. You're bringing up theoreticals which is all Bouwmeester defenders can really do at this point.

"We'd be worse without him"
"He's a top pairing guy on any team in the league"
"Plays top pairing and lots of minutes"

This is all that's left at this point.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Reanimate

I want to stab my eyes out.

I figured you already had if you claim to see Bouwmeester as a top defenceman.

[Reanimate]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Because those teams are desperate for any kind of defenseman with NHL experience right now and because they still see that he has the tools to be a top pairing D man. What they don't realize is he has no toolbox to bring the goods.

So you actually believe the GMs of very good franchises haven't done their homework on Bouwmeester?

I don't know what is more silly. The fact that you think they are stupid or that you think you are smarter than they are.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Reanimate

So you actually believe the GMs of very good franchises haven't done their homework on Bouwmeester?

I don't know what is more silly. The fact that you think they are stupid or that you think you are smarter than they are.

I am smart enough not to believe every rumour some 17 year old comes up with. How long has this deal been rumoured now? Again, give us anything...anything at all to show Jay Bouwmeester is worthy of being called a top pairing defenceman in a positive note. Go ahead. Oh..wait, you can't. When GM's get desperate they make bad acquisitions, NHL history has shown it time and time again.

[sketchyt]

Originally Posted by nik-

The question people are asking is "what makes Jay Bouwmeester a top 2 Dman?" If you can't answer it with anything more than "most minutes" and "plays against top lines" then there is a problem. There has to be some quantifiable data to show him as a top defender and it's just not there. So before you stab your eyes out, maybe answer that.

You're calling people ######s and yet adding nothing

Numbers are a pretty bad way to quantify Bouwmeester's effectiveness with the Flames. They look terrible for sure.

I look at this way. If he's not a top 2 dman in the league, then it should be pretty easy to name 60 dmen better than him. That's a lot of players.

In that exercise (putting salary aside), I think I got to about 50-55 before I was really reaching to put him out of the top 60. He's a top 2 dman, but just barely.

[StrykerSteve]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

Only way flames win a cup with bouwmeester is to go out and get a true #1 dman. Since that isn't happening, i hope they are able to utilize the asset and improve other areas of the roster.

Didn't they do just that by going out and acquiring Wideman, an all-star last season who led his team in scoring from the back-end by 14 points over the closest competitor?

I swear, Flames fans drive me nuts sometimes.

"We need a top defenceman!"

Flames go out and sign one of the top defenceman available. Fans respond by saying "We aren't going anywhere until we sign a defenceman!"

It's like we completely ignore the moves this team makes because they aren't the precise moves you want to see.

Another example...

"We need more scoring depth!"

Flames go out and sign one of the top FA wingers available, as well as one of the top scoring centers available from outside the NHL, and promise their top prospect makes the 2012/2013 lineup barring a disaster of biblical proportions. Fans respond by saying "This team can't score, we need more all-stars!"

Seriously, give your heads a shake. Bouwmeester is a good hockey player. Wideman is as well. There's room for both on this team, and this added depth should serve to improve the Flames overall.

Same can be said for the top 3 forward lines, which are now packed with a lot of new talent compared to one year ago at this time.

Tanguay - Cammalleri - Iginla
Glencross - Cervenka - Hudler
Baertschi - Backlund - Stempniak

The reason this team sucked the past few years, was because they were missing a lot of key pieces, not because of Jay Bouwmeester. There's no reason that this team shouldn't contend for a playoff spot with the current roster, and hopefully when they make it, people give the JBo bashing a rest already.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by sketchyt

Numbers are a pretty bad way to quantify Bouwmeester's effectiveness with the Flames. They look terrible for sure.

I look at this way. If he's not a top 2 dman in the league, then it should be pretty easy to name 60 dmen better than him. That's a lot of players.

In that exercise (putting salary aside), I think I got to about 50-55 before I was really reaching to put him out of the top 60. He's a top 2 dman, but just barely.

If the numbers look terrible and my eyes are telling me he doesn't look effective most of the time when I'm watching him and he makes the most money on my team other than the captain and my team hasn't made the playoffs since he donned a Flames jersey how do I quantify his time with my team?

[Reanimate]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

If the numbers look terrible and my eyes are telling me he doesn't look effective most of the time when I'm watching him and he makes the most money on my team other than the captain and my team hasn't made the playoffs since he donned a Flames jersey how do I quantify his time with my team?

I guess thats the difference then. Because in my personal viewings I see him as a very good defenseman.