[GDT] Boston Red Sox (0-3) at Toronto Blue Jays (2-1) April 9th-11th

[VERVE]

Originally Posted by flames_1987

He is paid to be a relief pitcher, he did not get guys out. Jose Bautista is paid to hit the ball, he did not do it.

More specifically, he is a closer. No he did not get 'er done tonight and yes, other Jays like Bautista did not come through either. I like Santos. He will be better, he is too good not to be. Tonight, chalk it up as nerves... he will learn.

[flamingreen]

Originally Posted by flames_1987

The offense deserves just as much blame. They gave him the lead mans nothing, they still were awful against a weak Red Sox bullpen. How the BlueJays hit the ball tonight poorly has no relationship to how Santos pitched. This is not hockey

He didn't blow the game. He contributed to the Jays losing and was far from sharp.

1 run or 8, the Blue Jays had the lead going into the 9th. Santos pitched brutally and lost them the game. That is all there is to it.

[flames_1987]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Come on, a one run lead with the 2-3-4 hitters due is a legitimate save opportunity. It's every bit a situation where you bring in a guy you feel is your best pitcher to get the three outs you need to win the game.

But Pedrioa is some kind of clutch player. He always seems to be the guy who rallies the Red Sox on offence.

A pitcher being your closer, does not mean he is your best pitcher at all.

He needs to do his job, he needs to have a strong 9th inning. He did not. He contributed to the Jays losing in a significant way

[Karl]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

1) You said after the game that he did not blow it after the closer was credited with a blown save and entered the game 2-1 and left it 2-4.

2) The offense gave the closer the lead with 3 outs to go. Not sure why they'd receive much, or any blame at all.

3) This point would make more sense to me if he was pitching well and the Sox were just getting their bats on top of tough pitches. But unfortunately that wasn't the case, Santos was all over the map.

I don't want to release Santos or trade him or anything of the sort, but he blew this game without question IMO. Not the end of the world, hope he shakes this one off and comes back stronger next time out.

Not untrue and of course this doesn't take any blame away from Santos, but 2 measly runs, not to mention, so far, a team batting average of .199 is not going to get any team many wins at all.

The bats will get better and Santos has outstanding stuff (anybody who watched or followed him with the White Sox knows this) and will get better, but this is 2 glaring problems early with the Jays: The closer messing up AND the bats (with the exception of Kelly Johnson) being largely ice-cold at this moment.

[flames_1987]

Originally Posted by flamingreen

1 run or 8, the Blue Jays had the lead going into the 9th. Santos pitched brutally and lost them the game. That is all there is to it.

1 run or 8....reallly? Seems to me if the Jays had 8 runs they would've won this game. Having the lead because your starting pitcher pitched great does not excuse a brutal offense for the 4 straight game.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Karl

Not untrue and of course this doesn't take any blame away from Santos, but 2 measly runs, not to mention, so far, a team batting average of .199 is not going to get any team many wins at all.

The bats will get better and Santos has outstanding stuff (anybody who watched or followed him with the White Sox knows this) and will get better, but this is 2 glaring problems early with the Jays: The closer messing up AND the bats (with the exception of Kelly Johnson) being largely ice-cold at this moment.

The Jays aren't going to blow any teams out. They are going to be taking alot of 1-run leads into the 9th.

[flames_1987]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

The Jays aren't going to blow any teams out. They are going to be taking alot of 1-run leads into the 9th.

How in the world is this true? If the Jays offensive players hit up to how they can and have proven, they can easily put up a runs and blow teams out if they get this type of pitching. This didn't become a small ball team overnight because of 4 games.

[VERVE]

Santos had over 30 saves last year for the Chisox, I think. He is that good. Drabek is pitching tomorrow and I will miss it, rats...

[flames_1987]

Santos is still young and learning his craft. This Jays team is still really young. Bautista and Lawrie were both awful tonight, bench them!

[flamingreen]

Originally Posted by flames_1987

1 run or 8....reallly? Seems to me if the Jays had 8 runs they would've won this game. Having the lead because your starting pitcher pitched great does not excuse a brutal offense for the 4 straight game.

Pitching not allowed to win you games?

Their hitting has been pretty abysmal but they still had the lead. Lawrie chasing everything and Bautista being late on pitches doesn't mean Santos gets a pass.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by flames_1987

How in the world is this true? If the Jays offensive players hit up to how they can and have proven, they can easily put up a runs and blow teams out if they get this type of pitching. This didn't become a small ball team overnight because of 4 games.

So you expect 5 run wins every game? The AL is competitive. There are days the bats the go off but the pitching won't. Or like tonight where the pitching was great but the bats struggled. Didn't say anything about small ball.

I see the Jays involved in alot of 5-4 type games this season.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by flames_1987

A pitcher being your closer, does not mean he is your best pitcher at all.

He needs to do his job, he needs to have a strong 9th inning. He did not. He contributed to the Jays losing in a significant way

Closer, or no closer, would you not want the guy you trust to get outs taking the hill in that situation? I can admit that it's not always the best reliever, as some guys are specialists at pitching out of the stretch with runners on, holding runners etc..but come on already you want a guy who can get the other teams three best hitters out there. Not to mention one out and a tie game with bases empty, maybe you bring in a new pitcher with a clear head to go forward.

Much of the time I think saves are BS, and managers do themselves a disservice in bringing in closers. But in this case that's one of the times you need to have a guy who can get you those three outs.

But the hitters did the team no favors either. It's hard to get thru 9 innings against the Red Sox and win when you scratch out two runs.

[flames_1987]

Originally Posted by flamingreen

Pitching not allowed to win you games?

Their hitting has been pretty abysmal but they still had the lead. Lawrie chasing everything and Bautista being late on pitches doesn't mean Santos gets a pass.

Santos having one bad inning, does not give Bautista, Lawrie and the entire offense outside of KJ a pass.

Pitching can win you games, Santos pitches a good 9th and the Jays get away with getting little offense again.

The offense should not be judged nor should this team on "because they had the lead". Nothing the pitching staff did tonight, had any bearing on how the Jays swing the bats.

[flames_1987]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

So you expect 5 run wins every game? The AL is competitive. There are days the bats the go off but the pitching won't. Or like tonight where the pitching was great but the bats struggled. Didn't say anything about small ball.

I see the Jays involved in alot of 5-4 type games this season.

Why would the Jays be involved in a lot of low scoring baseball games?

Your point changes with your post. Do I expect the Jays to win a lot of games by 5 runs, or do I expect them to not score a lot of runs?

I expect the fact that they play in a division against the Yankees, Red Sox and Rays offense's and the fact that the Jays have a very strong offense, that they will score more then 4-5 runs a game on average.

I'm not sure why this year would be any different then previous years, where 5-4, 4-3 games have not been the norm and will not be. The Jays can very easily blow teams out, just like they did last season. If you're point is that there will be a lot of close games, then yes, yes there will be.

[flames_1987]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Closer, or no closer, would you not want the guy you trust to get outs taking the hill in that situation? I can admit that it's not always the best reliever, as some guys are specialists at pitching out of the stretch with runners on, holding runners etc..but come on already you want a guy who can get the other teams three best hitters out there. Not to mention one out and a tie game with bases empty, maybe you bring in a new pitcher with a clear head to go forward.

Much of the time I think saves are BS, and managers do themselves a disservice in bringing in closers. But in this case that's one of the times you need to have a guy who can get you those three outs.

But the hitters did the team no favors either. It's hard to get thru 9 innings against the Red Sox and win when you scratch out two runs.

Managers seem to want a reliever that usually has pretty hard stuff. That is built to throw an inning and nothing more.

I do agree and think managers use the closer position horribly for the most part. Santos needs to do his job as the relief pitcher and not allow the Red Sox to score there. No denying that at all. He was brutal tonight.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by flames_1987

Why would the Jays be involved in a lot of low scoring baseball games?

Your point changes with your post. Do I expect the Jays to win a lot of games by 5 runs, or do I expect them to not score a lot of runs?

I expect the fact that they play in a division against the Yankees, Red Sox and Rays offense's and the fact that the Jays have a very strong offense, that they will score more then 4-5 runs a game on average.

I'm not sure why this year would be any different then previous years, where 5-4, 4-3 games have not been the norm and will not be. The Jays can very easily blow teams out, just like they did last season. If you're point is that there will be a lot of close games, then yes, yes there will be.

That's what I said at the beginning.

The Jays aren't going to blow any teams out. They are going to be taking alot of 1-run leads into the 9th.

[flames_1987]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

That's what I said at the beginning.

That's totally my fault that and looks ugly on my part to twist your words like that then. That's embarrassing.


For the record though, I do believe the Jays are going to blow a lot of teams out. The AL Central is still awful outside of Detroit, they still have the Orioles in the division and Seattle and Oakland to play. They get starting pitching like they have and can get from Alvarez, Romero, Morrow, with the talent this lineup has, they certainly can.

[flames_1987]

Post game: Santos said he would be booing to. JF rightfully said that Santos doesn't have a short leash, and is this teams closer.

Lawrie thanked the fans for the atmosphere and said the best thing about baseball is the Jays get to do this 158 more times.

[flames_1987]

There are a lot of statistical dickheads out there, I do not want to become one of them. This is a Calgary Flames message board, clearly with a lot of people who have interest in the BlueJays whether it be very strong or casual fans. I'm not going to try and pounce on everything and anything, and try to give off that elitist vibe. And there are even Jays fans on here who know much more then I do statically anyways.

The Red Sox tie the game up off a double, JP unable to block a ball in the dirt and then a Sac Fly. The "Santos blew it" post was made. After watching the Jays bats struggle again, I felt the need to say something to go against this rhetoric. The save stat and blown saves stat are useless for so many reasons. The fact that blowing a 1 run lead or a 3 run lead are not the same thing, much like blowing a 1 run lead is not the same. The stat is in my mind, the dumbest in baseball for even more reasons. Corderoo and Oliver pitched strong 7th and 8th innings, but they did not face the heart of that Red Sox lineup like Santos did.

Santos is still a work in progress and trying to harness his stuff, the Jays are still a young team that is a work in progress.

[flamingreen]

Originally Posted by flames_1987

Pitching can win you games, Santos pitches a good 9th and the Jays get away with getting little offense again.

He didn't.

Originally Posted by flames_1987

The offense should not be judged nor should this team on "because they had the lead". Nothing the pitching staff did tonight, had any bearing on how the Jays swing the bats.

No one said they did. I like Santos and think he will be just fine, but "if" arguments to shift the blame are lousy. Saying, "well if the Jays scored more runs then ..." after he came in and stunk the joint up doesn't change the fact that the Jays had the lead before he came in and were losing when he came out.