Vancouver loses top spot on world's most livable cities list

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

That's exactly the difference.

They have their own municipalities and pay their own taxes & infrastructure costs. My Vancouver taxes don't have to go up because we're paying to build Surrey, North Van, Burnaby etc.
They all pay their own taxes and expenses.

Yes we all use each other's infrastructure as well, & share some costs but overall Vancouver is not paying for the outbound development costs of people moving into new communities in the Fraser Valley.

Calgary as a single municipality is set up to cover a large geographic area, with big city costs, and a relatively small population for that space. It's not Calgary or suburb bashing to say so, it's just acknowledging a reality that the city needs to consider in it's urban planning and tax systems.

But thats not true, you have something called the Greater Vancouver Regional District which is responsible for community planning, water, sewage, drainage, housing, transportation, air quality, and parks....Don't think you didnt pay for the Golden Ears Bridge ect...

[bizaro86]

Calgary covering the whole metropolitan area is one of the reasons why our density is so low. The city has annexed a huge amount of farmland around the fringe for future growth, which has a very low (near zero) populationd density.

A city surrounded by other municipalities/suburbs can't do that, so it's municipal limits include only built up area. That makes a huge difference.

[Tinordi]

Golden ears is a bad example because it's tolled. But yes everyone in the province is paying for the Port Mann twinning. Why should people in Fernie be paying for that when they'll never use it?

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Golden ears is a bad example because it's tolled. But yes everyone in the province is paying for the Port Mann twinning. Why should people in Fernie be paying for that when they'll never use it?

Thanks you are right.

People in Vancouver do pay for a lot of things in the Greater Vancouver area - that's the point.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Thanks you are right.

People in Vancouver do pay for a lot of things in the Greater Vancouver area - that's the point.

Agreed, but it's a complicated cost structure. For example, in Translink only revenues from the various zones pays for the Translink funded shares of service to those areas. IE. zone 1 fares only go to Vancouver while zone 2 fares go to Richmond, Burnaby etc. But Translink isn't only funded by fares. As a result, everyone in MetroVan pays through the BC gas tax for translink to service expensive suburbs out in Langley and the rest.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by valo403

Are you seriously that dense?

First off, there is no need to resort to personal insults because someone is playing devil's advocate.

Originally Posted by valo403

Did anyone suggest that Calgary should be walled off from outside communities? Nope. What was suggested was tolls, a system that is used by thousands of cities around the world, the vast majority of which are in free countries.

The concept of a toll is a simple one. Now tell me the simple way that you would implement it to ensure maximum compliance. A law with no practical enforcement method is essentially useless.

Originally Posted by valo403

It's a very simple system, how you make the leap to checkpoints and people carrying papers is rather puzzling.

You can't put a tollbooth on every road that leads into the city. Such a system would probably cost too much to implement and would seem draconian in measure.

Explain how these tolls would be implemented as it is impractical to put tollbooths (essentially a checkpoint at which those who would pay would enter and those who wouldn't would be denied entry) at the city limits due to the limited number of major thoroughfares in Calgary.

Bertuzzied originally said "I want a toll for people who live in Airdrie, Okotoks and Cochrane but work in Calgary too."

How do you distinguish between people visiting Calgary for pleasure instead of work? Do you charge tourists because they are also using the infrastructure and not paying for it?

How do you charge out of town workers? Is it a flat fee? Does it matter if someone works in the downtown core or a half of a kilometre inside the city limits? Do you charge per vehicle or per person? Without a camera checkpoint (photograph of license plate and/or sticker pass) or a tollbooth how is this accomplished?

Do you fine people without a sticker if they have an out of town residence listed on their vehicle registration when you find out they don't have the pass? What if those people are simply driving through Calgary and not stopping?

These are all questions that I doubt any member of City Council would want to address. Thus, this is why a toll on people who work in Calgary yet reside elsewhere will. never. happen.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Reaper

Thus, this is why a toll on people who work in Calgary yet reside elsewhere will. never. happen.

You are of course absolutely right. However, a toll could be imposed on vehicles entering the city, with Calgary registered vehicles exempted when the bills are sent out at the end of the month. (Think London's congestion charge*).

Alternatively, many US cities (eg Denver**) have income taxes at the municipal level. I actually think that would be a reasonably elegant solution, although it would require the province to authorize municipalities to collect that sort of revenue. There could be some sort of refundability built into the system for those who already live in Calgary.


Calgary charges more for out of towners to use our libraries, the same logic could easily apply to our roads. Do you disagree with the logic of doing that or just the practicality?


*http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/congestioncharging/

**http://www.denvergov.org/Portals/571...lege%20Tax.htm

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Calgary charges more for out of towners to use our libraries, the same logic could easily apply to our roads. Do you disagree with the logic of doing that or just the practicality?

I do not disagree with the logic; just the practicality.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by Bunk

In fact, Calgary has far denser new subdivisions than their American counterparts, which have massive swaths of unregulated ex-urban sprawl.

If you want evidence, check out this absolutely fantastic series of Aerial photographs of American Suburbs entitled "USA Sprawl Festival"

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=398065

One issue I have with what I've seen from Calgary sprawl is that it seems to eschew the grid system and instead has crescent after crescent off a main circular road. That bottlenecks traffic in the few roads leading out of the community.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Reaper

First off, there is no need to resort to personal insults because someone is playing devil's advocate.
The concept of a toll is a simple one. Now tell me the simple way that you would implement it to ensure maximum compliance. A law with no practical enforcement method is essentially useless.
You can't put a tollbooth on every road that leads into the city. Such a system would probably cost too much to implement and would seem draconian in measure.

Explain how these tolls would be implemented as it is impractical to put tollbooths (essentially a checkpoint at which those who would pay would enter and those who wouldn't would be denied entry) at the city limits due to the limited number of major thoroughfares in Calgary.

Bertuzzied originally said "I want a toll for people who live in Airdrie, Okotoks and Cochrane but work in Calgary too."

How do you distinguish between people visiting Calgary for pleasure instead of work? Do you charge tourists because they are also using the infrastructure and not paying for it?

How do you charge out of town workers? Is it a flat fee? Does it matter if someone works in the downtown core or a half of a kilometre inside the city limits? Do you charge per vehicle or per person? Without a camera checkpoint (photograph of license plate and/or sticker pass) or a tollbooth how is this accomplished?

Do you fine people without a sticker if they have an out of town residence listed on their vehicle registration when you find out they don't have the pass? What if those people are simply driving through Calgary and not stopping?

These are all questions that I doubt any member of City Council would want to address. Thus, this is why a toll on people who work in Calgary yet reside elsewhere will. never. happen.

Have you ever left Calgary? There are literally hundreds of cities around the world that have solved this apparent Gordian knot and imposed tolls on major roadways. Again, not a complicated system.

1) Place toll plazas on roadways
2) Have people pay tolls
3) Profit

You don't even need the ???? step.

How do you distinguish between people visiting Calgary for pleasure instead of work? You don't, purpose of use plays no part.

Do you charge tourists because they are also using the infrastructure and not paying for it? Yes, why wouldn't you. Use is use.

How do you charge out of town workers? Is it a flat fee? Does it matter if someone works in the downtown core or a half of a kilometre inside the city limits? Do you charge per vehicle or per person? Without a camera checkpoint (photograph of license plate and/or sticker pass) or a tollbooth how is this accomplished? You charge them by having them pay a toll, that's sort of the point. Whether that's a cash payment or ideally through the use of a pass system/license plate photographs. The destination only matters if you setup progressive tolling based on portion of road used, which is done by placing toll stations at exits. Charge per person? Why would something aimed at road usage charge per person? That makes absolutely no sense. And how you got the idea that toll roads would be setup without actually using a tolling system is rather odd.

Do you fine people without a sticker if they have an out of town residence listed on their vehicle registration when you find out they don't have the pass? What sticker? What pass? It seems you've implemented a tolling system here without actually telling me what it is. If you need a pass to pay a toll, which is the setup in many cities, and don't have one then yes you are fined/billed for the cost of the toll. Would it make more sense to just let those people cruise through for free?

What if those people are simply driving through Calgary and not stopping? Again, destination doesn't matter. I didn't stop the last time I crossed the Triborough bridge, that would probably be a bad idea, it doesn't mean I don't have to pay for the use of the infrastructure.

I'm not sure that a toll system makes sense for Calgary, largely because i would have to be implemented on Deerfoot which is still provincially managed afaik, but a toll system is certainly not the complicated issue you've dreamed up and definitely isn't something that impinges upon any notions of this being a free country, which is in all honesty one of the more ridiculous things I have ever read.

[indierockorgy]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I have to agree with Vienna.

Surprised not to see any Swiss cities on there though.

yeah, I was just in Switzerland and was in Vancouver last week, and I think it's pretty much a total joke that Vancouver ranks above any major Swiss city. Their transit's efficiency, the smoothness of the traffic, proximity of anything and everything important, ease of getting around, general beauty and livability, culture, politeness and friendliness of people, &c. completely outpace Vancouver and certainly Melbourne, among others. Granted, Swiss cities are prohibitively expensive, but not when taking into consideration how well Swiss jobs pay.

The list is nonsense, anyway.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by indierockorgy

yeah, I was just in Switzerland and was in Vancouver last week, and I think it's pretty much a total joke that Vancouver ranks above any major Swiss city. Their transit's efficiency, the smoothness of the traffic, proximity of anything and everything important, ease of getting around, general beauty and livability, culture, politeness and friendliness of people, &c. completely outpace Vancouver and certainly Melbourne, among others. Granted, Swiss cities are prohibitively expensive, but not when taking into consideration how well Swiss jobs pay.

The list is nonsense, anyway.

European cities will always have a big advantage - they weren't built for cars..they had the populations before cars - so public transit was a bigger need. North American cities were built around the car - Back in the 50's the attitudes of moving away from mass transit was thought to be the more progessive one. We were wrong and didn't learn anything from the European way. Also the population models back than prob didn't include immigration, which allowed populations in North America to greatly increase and put more cars on the road - and render a lot of roads to small for the volume.

I agree the list is nonense but you still can't go wrong with any of those cities - all great places to live - although Calgary is prob a heck of a lot cheaper than all of them.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by valo403

Have you ever left Calgary?

No need to act condescending. It makes you come off rather jerkish. But, to answer your question, I'm not even originally from Calgary so it is naturally assumed that I have indeed left Calgary.

Originally Posted by valo403

There are literally hundreds of cities around the world that have solved this apparent Gordian knot and imposed tolls on major roadways. Again, not a complicated system.

1) Place toll plazas on roadways
2) Have people pay tolls
3) Profit

You don't even need the ???? step.

Please tell me which of the the entrances to Calgary would you place toll plazas? If it is not all entrances then what is the logical recourse when traffic from out of town diverts from the tolled entrances to those that are untold?

Originally Posted by valo403

How do you distinguish between people visiting Calgary for pleasure instead of work? You don't, purpose of use plays no part.

Maybe you have failed to notice but the original suggestion was that out of town workers should be tolled because they work in Calgary yet live out of town.

Originally Posted by valo403

Do you charge tourists because they are also using the infrastructure and not paying for it? Yes, why wouldn't you. Use is use.

Discouraging tourism to Calgary doesn't sound like a great idea to me.

Originally Posted by valo403

How do you charge out of town workers? Is it a flat fee? Does it matter if someone works in the downtown core or a half of a kilometre inside the city limits? Do you charge per vehicle or per person? Without a camera checkpoint (photograph of license plate and/or sticker pass) or a tollbooth how is this accomplished? You charge them by having them pay a toll, that's sort of the point. Whether that's a cash payment or ideally through the use of a pass system/license plate photographs. The destination only matters if you setup progressive tolling based on portion of road used, which is done by placing toll stations at exits. Charge per person? Why would something aimed at road usage charge per person? That makes absolutely no sense.

Sigh, the original suggestion was that out of town workers should be tolled because they work in Calgary yet live out of town. There is more to infrastructure than just roads yet you seem to have only concerned yourself with road usage.

Originally Posted by valo403

And how you got the idea that toll roads would be setup without actually using a tolling system is rather odd.

Please point out where I suggested that toll roads would be set up without using a tolling system. Otherwise, don't put words in my mouth.

Originally Posted by valo403

Do you fine people without a sticker if they have an out of town residence listed on their vehicle registration when you find out they don't have the pass?What sticker? What pass? It seems you've implemented a tolling system here without actually telling me what it is. If you need a pass to pay a toll, which is the setup in many cities, and don't have one then yes you are fined/billed for the cost of the toll. Would it make more sense to just let those people cruise through for free?

I have implemented no tolling system without telling you what it is. I was simply presenting possible questions associated with some of the systems.

Originally Posted by valo403

What if those people are simply driving through Calgary and not stopping? Again, destination doesn't matter. I didn't stop the last time I crossed the Triborough bridge, that would probably be a bad idea, it doesn't mean I don't have to pay for the use of the infrastructure.

I think a toll just to enter the city would be a terrible idea. Also, you don't have to present absurdities and suggest that those were my intention.

Originally Posted by valo403

I'm not sure that a toll system makes sense for Calgary, largely because iT would have to be implemented on Deerfoot which is still provincially managed afaik,

Okay, another reason why it won't happen...

Originally Posted by valo403

but a toll system is certainly not the complicated issue you've dreamed up and definitely isn't something that impinges upon any notions of this being a free country, which is in all honesty one of the more ridiculous things I have ever read.

I haven't dreamed up anything regarding toll systems. Perhaps I should avoid debate when I am tired and I could have worded the whole "free country" thing a bit better but the premise is simple. If you essentially tax people for entering a city based upon where they reside then you are restricting the movement of people. It is a smaller scale version of a "head tax" for immigration and those have not been seen as ethical in historical examinations.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

We were wrong and didn't learn anything from the European way.

It's not that. It's that GM paid for and bought the US government at the time - hence, the massive spending on roads...

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Reaper

No need to act condescending. It makes you come off rather jerkish. But, to answer your question, I'm not even originally from Calgary so it is naturally assumed that I have indeed left Calgary.

I only asked because of your apparent lack of familiarity with simple tolling systems. They are in virtually every major city in the world, and you're treating them as if they are completely unheard of.


Please tell me which of the the entrances to Calgary would you place toll plazas? If it is not all entrances then what is the logical recourse when traffic from out of town diverts from the tolled entrances to those that are untold?

The deerfoot would be the logical starting point as it is the most heavily used entry. You don't need to close off every entry point to have an effective toll system, the majority of people aren't going to trade in using a highway to sneak in on surface streets. Some will, and increased traffic on those roads is an issue, but it's not an incredibly difficult one to deal with. Installing systems that slow traffic and make the use of that route undesirable limits traffic, and stepped up enforcement (particularly initially) of traffic laws limits and public danger issues. Realistically there are very few practical routes by which to enter Calgary and it wouldn't be difficult to place tolling systems on the majority of them (absent the provincial control of deerfoot).

Maybe you have failed to notice but the original suggestion was that out of town workers should be tolled because they work in Calgary yet live out of town.

And they would be, the fact that people who come in to go to the Flames game pay as well doesn't change that.

Discouraging tourism to Calgary doesn't sound like a great idea to me.

Installing toll roads is going to discourage tourism? Man London, NYC, Chicago, Paris, Sydney..... a list of cities that people just simply won't go to due to those darned toll roads. Quite the weak argument.

Sigh, the original suggestion was that out of town workers should be tolled because they work in Calgary yet live out of town. There is more to infrastructure than just roads yet you seem to have only concerned yourself with road usage.

Well it seems like quite the sensical place to start when discussing people who live at point x and work at point y doesn't it? The issue is their transit between the points, transit achieved by roads (unless some use gliders, in which case they get a pass), so a toll on that road achieves the goal does it not?

Please point out where I suggested that toll roads would be set up without using a tolling system. Otherwise, don't put words in my mouth.

"Without a camera checkpoint (photograph of license plate and/or sticker pass) or a tollbooth how is this accomplished?"

That's you. You're basically asking me how I would accomplish a tolling system without implementing a tolling system. The answer to that is I wouldn't. I can't set up toll booths, I can't use camera/sticker passes. I'm left with what? A guy at the side of the road with a bucket asking nicely for donations?

I have implemented no tolling system without telling you what it is. I was simply presenting possible questions associated with some of the systems.
I think a toll just to enter the city would be a terrible idea. Also, you don't have to present absurdities and suggest that those were my intention.

Well then what are these stickers and passes you speak of? How do they work? Why would you need one? You asked me if people would get fined for not having them, but gave me absolutely no means of knowing what they even were.

And I don't see the absurdities. If I use the infrastructure I pay for it, that's the point of a tolling system. Whether or not I stop has no impact. You don't pay to pass through Banff without stopping because the fee isn't for road usage, it's for park usage. If you want to use the aprk you pay. If a toll was put in place for use of the downtown core and you didn't enter the downtown core you wouldn't pay the toll, if the toll was for use of the roadway and you used the roadway you are charged the toll whehter you stop for coffee or not.

[/COLOR]
Okay, another reason why it won't happen...
I haven't dreamed up anything regarding toll systems. Perhaps I should avoid debate when I am tired and I could have worded the whole "free country" thing a bit better but the premise is simple. If you essentially tax people for entering a city based upon where they reside then you are restricting the movement of people. It is a smaller scale version of a "head tax" for immigration and those have not been seen as ethical in historical examinations.

Which brings me back to my question of whether you have ever left Calgary. Toll roads exist virtually everywhere, the fact that Calgary doesn't have them is actually pretty surprising for a city of its size. They don't prevent people from entering a city, they prevent people from entering a city quickly and conveniently and they pass the costs for that convenience onto the users. Painitng these as some sort of unethical head tax is preposterous.

I don't know how to mulit-quote, responses in red

[SeoulFire]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

I think calling them latte-sucking just makes you feel better.

I never called them "latte sucking" - I stated that they may be on the latte-sucking fashion train since it now seem to be the trendy thing to do for people who (now) live downtown.

Maybe they don't walk around with 80's polo shirts with their collar popped. They just think it's a much more cost effective and resource efficient way to build a city.

Or it could be (as in my unclear jab) that complaining about sprawl is the cool thing to do for people who now live downtown - I really don't know. Some people might truly care - others may do it simply to feel better about themselves since they moved downtown.

Calgary is a city that has people in the middle financing the spiraling cost of infrastructure, and that's just a fact, and when the current city tax allocation methodology was rolled out that was the goal, to apply tax heaviest to the high valued land (read not highest value homes). It reminds me of people who think driving with cell phones is ok or 20 years ago the debate about seat belts. The answer is so obvious, but people just want to defend what they are used to seemingly unconditionally.

I can agree with this to an extent but for a lot of the newcomers to central it was a known factor before moving there. It is like a person who bought next to the airport and then complains about the noise.

Others have referred to taxing new communities via the builders is nice but it's impossible to apply retroactively, so it can only be part of a solution.

Totally agree.

I agree with what you said about building other central districts, you referred to them in the context of a commercial zone which is fine, but they also make sense from a residential perspective, to build around mass transit hubs. In Calgary's case that should be around areas like Chinook LRT, Anderson LRT, that Westgate mall area and probably more around the Sunnyside to 16th ave corridor up 10th and 14th St NW.

Agreed. The ultimate goal of the South Calgary Hospital and area (for example) is to create a southern hub/node of professional, commerce, food (restaurants) etc etc. that services the massive SE. If they do it effectively the value of the homes in the area should increase and the taxes to follow which should tend towards self-sufficiency - that is what the dt people claim they want so I don't see how there can be too much opposition (unless their actual goal is a further increase in their own property values due to more dt development).

And when you say how many people have lived in significantly dense areas, what you do mean? Like Midtown? I think the areas you are referring to would not be relevant. People don't expect a midtown to be built, they just don't like Calgary's extreme case of ignoring density and sprawling endlessly.

I am just guessing that many who claim to desire density have never actually experienced it - this is also referring to the trendy nature of the debate (from the dt perspective). I am also guessing that they have never experienced the drawbacks of a high density urban environment but are clinging to the current glamour of that side of the debate.

I simply don't believe that one core area for everything is the best way to create a dynamic city.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by SeoulFire

I am just guessing that many who claim to desire density have never actually experienced it - this is also referring to the trendy nature of the debate (from the dt perspective). I am also guessing that they have never experienced the drawbacks of a high density urban environment but are clinging to the current glamour of that side of the debate.

In my experience (and it's as a foreigner in most places not a resident) neighbourhoods with buildings mostly around 4-6 stories seem to be the most walkable and livable. Examples of the top of my head from my travels include the most livable parts of London, Barcelona, Istanbul and Buenos Aires. Skyscraper neighbourhoods tend to have a more sterile feel to them, as the streetscape becomes a less significant part of life.

Neighbourhoods of single family homes have an opposite problem, as the density is not high enough to support a core of services.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by valo403

I don't know how to mulit-quote, responses in red

Originally Posted by valo403

I only asked because of your apparent lack of familiarity with simple tolling systems. They are in virtually every major city in the world, and you're treating them as if they are completely unheard of.

I'm not treating them as if they are unheard of. Apparently, you don't seem to be grasping what I'm saying. Here it is:

A toll system that only individually tolls people who work in Calgary yet reside elsewhere is never going to happen as only vehicles can be subjected to a toll for traveling on a given road. A per person toll would be too costly in the long run to be effective when it comes to transit (a system which requires all retail sale of transit tickets to be based upon checking residency requirements for each passenger to determine the cost of a fare).

Originally Posted by valo403

The deerfoot would be the logical starting point as it is the most heavily used entry. You don't need to close off every entry point to have an effective toll system, the majority of people aren't going to trade in using a highway to sneak in on surface streets. Some will, and increased traffic on those roads is an issue, but it's not an incredibly difficult one to deal with. Installing systems that slow traffic and make the use of that route undesirable limits traffic, and stepped up enforcement (particularly initially) of traffic laws limits and public danger issues. Realistically there are very few practical routes by which to enter Calgary and it wouldn't be difficult to place tolling systems on the majority of them (absent the provincial control of deerfoot).

Fair enough but I just cannot see Deerfoot, Crowchild and the TransCanad being converted to toll roads.

Originally Posted by valo403

And they would be, the fact that people who come in to go to the Flames game pay as well doesn't change that.

And those people would be casualties if a vehicular toll that was intended to target out of town workers who are employed in Calgary was implemented.

Originally Posted by valo403

Installing toll roads is going to discourage tourism? Man London, NYC, Chicago, Paris, Sydney..... a list of cities that people just simply won't go to due to those darned toll roads. Quite the weak argument.

The first two cities you mention are the only true "World Cities" that exist and to compare their draw to the draw of Calgary in the context of tourism is ridiculous.

As Calgary really has only 2 transprovincial/transnational roads that pass through it I contend that imposing a toll for travel on either one within Calgary city limits would have a discouraging effect on automotive tourism.

Originally Posted by valo403

Well it seems like quite the sensical place to start when discussing people who live at point x and work at point y doesn't it? The issue is their transit between the points, transit achieved by roads (unless some use gliders, in which case they get a pass), so a toll on that road achieves the goal does it not?

A toll on a road targets every vehicle that travels on a road. Do you seriously think that a City council motion that targets out of town workers by imposing a toll for all vehicles on one or two major routes is going to pass? It costs enough to live in Calgary as it is. I can only imagine the impact a toll imposed for simply using the Deerfoot and how that would stretch through transportation, shipping and the cost for basically every consumer product that arrives by road.

Originally Posted by valo403

That's you. You're basically asking me how I would accomplish a tolling system without implementing a tolling system. The answer to that is I wouldn't. I can't set up toll booths, I can't use camera/sticker passes. I'm left with what? A guy at the side of the road with a bucket asking nicely for donations?

The word "this" in the question how is this accomplished? refers to how the original goal of individually tolling out of town workers would be accomplished.

Originally Posted by valo403

Well then what are these stickers and passes you speak of? How do they work? Why would you need one? You asked me if people would get fined for not having them, but gave me absolutely no means of knowing what they even were.

And I don't see the absurdities.

Equating with stopping your vehicle on a Toll bridge with someone paying a toll for passing through town using one of the only routes available? You don't think that's absurd? I can't help you then.

Originally Posted by valo403

If I use the infrastructure I pay for it, that's the point of a tolling system. Whether or not I stop has no impact. You don't pay to pass through Banff without stopping because the fee isn't for road usage, it's for park usage. If you want to use the park you pay. If a toll was put in place for use of the downtown core and you didn't enter the downtown core you wouldn't pay the toll, if the toll was for use of the roadway and you used the roadway you are charged the toll whether you stop for coffee or not.

Now, you're just being condescending. I am aware of the concept of a tolling and fee for use systems.

Originally Posted by valo403

Which brings me back to my question of whether you have ever left Calgary. Toll roads exist virtually everywhere, the fact that Calgary doesn't have them is actually pretty surprising for a city of its size. They don't prevent people from entering a city, they prevent people from entering a city quickly and conveniently and they pass the costs for that convenience onto the users. Painting these as some sort of unethical head tax is preposterous.

I answered your friggin' question. Try reading the post from the beginning.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by Reaper

A toll system that only individually tolls people who work in Calgary yet reside elsewhere is never going to happen as only vehicles can be subjected to a toll for traveling on a given road. A per person toll would be too costly in the long run to be effective when it comes to transit (a system which requires all retail sale of transit tickets to be based upon checking residency requirements for each passenger to determine the cost of a fare).

Not hard at all. Scan every car that enters the road by their license plate but only issue invoices to the cars that are registered outside of Calgary. Out of province plates could be ignored as well which would prevent the tourism issue you previously mentioned.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by SeoulFire

I am just guessing that many who claim to desire density have never actually experienced it - this is also referring to the trendy nature of the debate (from the dt perspective). I am also guessing that they have never experienced the drawbacks of a high density urban environment but are clinging to the current glamour of that side of the debate.

I simply don't believe that one core area for everything is the best way to create a dynamic city.

I support the idea of a compact, mixed use, walkable and transit-supportive urban form. I live in the densest community in Calgary - also perhaps the most liveable location I've ever personally experienced first hand (having also lived in downtown Toronto as well as at Yonge and St. Clair).

I agree with the idea of decentralizing via centralized transit-oriented hubs. Seton, Brentwood/University, Westgate, etc. But the core should and will always be pre-eminent - and more resources need to go into improving it (it's an economic driver and represents the image of the city more than anywhere else).