Jack Layton dies at 61

[redforever]

Originally Posted by 4X4

I think that the leader of the opposition is well deserving of a state funeral.

I agree, especially if he died while he was still serving his country.

PMs, either present or past, GGs, either present or past are pretty well automatically afforded state funerals. Any others are at the discretion of the PM of the day. I think PM Harper did the right thing here.

Someone else disagreed, on the notion that the NDP is a fringe party. I do not agree with that whatsoever. While the past NDP certainly have not enjoyed the popularity they presently do, they have been an official party for years and years.

[To Be Quite Honest]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I'm not sure that I'm onboard with a state funeral, it seems like a bit of political one up man ship.

As much as I respect Layton for his passion and his destruction of the Bloc, I'm not sure that a party leader that up until this year was a fringe party is really State Funeral material.

State Funerals should be for former Prime Ministers, or great Canadian's who died in service of their country.

The NDP is the main reason why we have the health care we have today. The health care envied by most nations in the world.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by redforever

Someone else disagreed, on the notion that the NDP is a fringe party. I do not agree with that whatsoever. While the past NDP certainly have not enjoyed the popularity they presently do, they have been an official party for years and years.

So has the Green Party, have they not? The Green Party has been around since 1983 and I think even now having won a seat that they're still largely fringe.

The NDP was pretty well that annoying little brother who wouldn't shut up in the back seat of during car rides. Elections were really a battle between the PC (now Conservatives) and the Liberals. The NDP? They served as little more than a mechanism to try and avoid majority governments.

In the past two elections, that changed substantially, and I will say that the NDP would be nowhere without Layton's influence, but he certainly had some help thanks to Dion and Ignatieff being complete doorknobs.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by To Be Quite Honest

The NDP is the main reason why we have the health care we have today. The health care envied by most nations in the world.

The Canadian health care system is not as envied as Canadians think it is, and Tommy Douglas and the NDP party that fought for universal health care was the party 50 years ago which has little in common or tied with the modern party despite being on similar sides of the political spectrum.

Layton and the modern day NDP have no real accomplishments on their CVs in their tenure other than bringing the party from the fringe to the official opposition.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

We will have to agree to disagree.

I know that people are enamored with the Orange Crush, but up until this election, the NDP were a non entity in Canadian History.

And up until this election he was not the leader of the official opposition.

I don't mean to begrudge the dead, and I have a lot of respect for Jack and what he did. But what he did isn't really worthy of a State Funeral.

I wonder how many people who are opposed to Layton receiving a state funeral would've have been in favour of Preston Manning receiving one? (Of course no one will admit this now, but it does make me wonder)

I am not a huge NDP supporter, but Harper made the right call here. The rarity of any MP dying in office let alone being the leader of the opposition means that this isn't some horrible precedent or anything. Instead its a great show of respect, as it should be. I always thought that Layton and Harper got along and probably liked each other. Sure they had obvious political differences, but they seemed to have a lot in common as well.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

So has the Green Party, have they not? The Green Party has been around since 1983 and I think even now having won a seat that they're still largely fringe.

The NDP was pretty well that annoying little brother who wouldn't shut up in the back seat of during car rides. Elections were really a battle between the PC (now Conservatives) and the Liberals. The NDP? They served as little more than a mechanism to try and avoid majority governments.

In the past two elections, that changed substantially, and I will say that the NDP would be nowhere without Layton's influence, but he certainly had some help thanks to Dion and Ignatieff being complete doorknobs.

However, the Green Party has not had official party status from 1983 on. They might have one seat in Parliament now, but I don't consider them comparable to the NDP party in the least.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Slava

I wonder how many people who are opposed to Layton receiving a state funeral would've have been in favour of Preston Manning receiving one? (Of course no one will admit this now, but it does make me wonder)

Well Preston Manning isn't dead yet, so I'd say he personally might object to it.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

The Canadian health care system is not as envied as Canadians think it is, and Tommy Douglas and the NDP party that fought for universal health care was the party 50 years ago which has little in common or tied with the modern party despite being on similar sides of the political spectrum.

Layton and the modern day NDP have no real accomplishments on their CVs in their tenure other than bringing the party from the fringe to the official opposition.

Thats somewhat amusing (the last sentence). Bringing a party from the fringe to the official opposition is a real accomplishment! We might not agree with their policies, or deride the MPs as a bunch of rookies, but its still very impressive.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Well Preston Manning isn't dead yet, so I'd say he personally might object to it.

ya, I know....its a hypothetical.

[Hack&Lube]

Despite what it is, I think this is quite an opportunity for his son, Mike Layton who is already following in his father's footsteps as a Toronto City Councilor to maybe step up to the Federal NDPs based on his father's name and give that party some sense of continuity with Jack Layton.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Slava

Thats somewhat amusing (the last sentence). Bringing a party from the fringe to the official opposition is a real accomplishment! We might not agree with their policies, or deride the MPs as a bunch of rookies, but its still very impressive.

The NDP coming from the fringe to the official opposition was more a backlash of Quebecers tired of the Bloc than something of the NDP's own doing. They were the only other viable alternative.

[transplant99]

I think that a state funeral is wayyy over the top, and i would say the same thing in Mannings case too...i mean what did either guy accomplish in respect to Canada? Other than being MP's and opposition leaders and getting their parties to their highest levels ever....nothing.

Both got a lot accomplished at other levels of gov't, but I completely fail to see where a state funeral would be appropriate for them.

I dont care they are doing it, just think its all about some love-in for a guy that really did not much more than run one great election and smoked the seperatists federally. Regardless of his charisma or how much he was liked by those who knew him, his actual contributions to the country are very very limited and not all of them were popular.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Slava

Thats somewhat amusing (the last sentence). Bringing a party from the fringe to the official opposition is a real accomplishment! We might not agree with their policies, or deride the MPs as a bunch of rookies, but its still very impressive.

It is, and no one can deny that regardless of the reasons behiond it....but is it anything that should be considered state funeral worthy?

[Ark2]

I really like what Christie Blatchford said about Jack Layton's alleged "letter to Canadians". Even on his deathbed, he was working a political angle. Pretty lame if you ask me, although I am skeptical that he even wrote it himself.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by transplant99

It is, and no one can deny that regardless of the reasons behiond it....but is it anything that should be considered state funeral worthy?

I actually really don't care that they're doing it either. I think its the right thing to do though, mostly because he was in office at the time and held that position at the time of his death.

Originally Posted by Ark2

I really like what Christie Blatchford said about Jack Layton's alleged "letter to Canadians". Even on his deathbed, he was working a political angle. Pretty lame if you ask me, although I am skeptical that he even wrote it himself.

I thought it was well known that some NDPers helped write it? The politicking was too much for me, but some of the letter was quite touching.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Originally Posted by Ark2

I really like what Christie Blatchford said about Jack Layton's alleged "letter to Canadians". Even on his deathbed, he was working a political angle. Pretty lame if you ask me, although I am skeptical that he even wrote it himself.

Wait.... what?

A man on his deathbed isn't entitled to issue a final posthumous statement?

For what I read, his "alterior motive" was to encourage other cancer patients.

[V]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

For what I read, his "alterior motive" was to encourage other cancer patients.

Self-serving jackass...

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

Wait.... what?

A man on his deathbed isn't entitled to issue a final posthumous statement?

For what I read, his "alterior motive" was to encourage other cancer patients.

He's "allowed" to do whatever he wants. I just thought it was lame that he was still politicking during his last days on earth. Kind of sums him up for me. If other people are able to take inspiration out of that, then great, I guess...

[V]

We're all on our "last days on earth". How far from your grave do you have to be to stop being yourself?

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by V

We're all on our "last days on earth". How far from your grave do you have to be to stop being yourself?

I'm not sure what you are saying? Maybe you should actually read the letter before commenting on it? Dunno...