General Ongoing Coyotes saga thread

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

My personal viewpoint on this is the fact that this entire thing is a complete farce. The fact that it has carried on this long and the process has burned through this many interested parties says what everyone has been saying all along: the team just won't work in Glendale.

Oh, I doubt anybody on any side of this will disagree.

The farce, ultimately, lays at Glendale's feet. The NHL is mostly protected, and legally it would be impossible to argue that the league has not made a good faith effort to keep the team in Glendale (if the possibilities of lawsuits flying come into play as was first speculated when Balsillie made his play). The league keeps finding people willing to drop money, and Glendale keeps screwing it up somehow. That city is going to be left holding the bag, out $50 million and stuck with an empty arena. The franchise will move on, and Phoenix's NHL misadventure will be quickly forgotten.

It's an amusing story though. Hell, if you can make a movie about Moneyball, the script for the Coyotes saga should be amazing!

[TorqueDog]

I want to see a South Park episode about the Coyotes saga.

[Thumper17]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Oh no, it has A LOT to do with Canadian inferiority complex vs. those evil American monsters who "stole" our teams/hate our country.

Dont speak for everyone, I dont care if the keep the team in the states. Just put it in a market where it'll sell.

Right now Quebec, Hartford, Seattle, Kansas City, Houston and Hamilton look like the best places to go, at least fan-base and travel wise, so put a team in their somewhere and in 5-10 years revist Phoenix, if it's not a ghost town by then.

[Northendzone]

Why would you revisit phx in 5 to 10? They have been around for 10+ yrs now with nothing but mixed results........

[Poe969]

Winnipeg has mixed results until they found out the jets were leaving. I agree that the team should move, I'd prefer it to come to Canada because I know a team would do well in Hamilton or Quebec but I'd be open to a team going somehwere like Hartford, Seatlle or KC because it might work there too.

Thing is, its not working in Phoenix and its bad for the league to have this hanging over its head.

[TorqueDog]

I'd love to see the return of the Hartford Whalers. That said - throughout all these relocation talks - it's the place I've heard mentioned the least, if at all. I'm not sure how much of an appetite there is to move a team back to Hartford.

My top three, in no particular order: Hamilton, Houston, Quebec City

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Oh no, it has A LOT to do with Canadian inferiority complex vs. those evil American monsters who "stole" our teams/hate our country.

Well don't speak for everyone there. This argument has little to do with the way I feel about the situation and why it's important to me anyway. Though maybe you're right, there are probably still many blinded by emotion.

But for me the ongoing saga of Phoenix just highlights deeper troubles in the league and the management of it. Which is sad because I really like some other things that have been done lately to bring attention to hockey and the NHL.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Well don't speak for everyone there. This argument has little to do with the way I feel about the situation and why it's important to me anyway. Though maybe you're right, there are probably still many blinded by emotion.

But for me the ongoing saga of Phoenix just highlights deeper troubles in the league and the management of it. Which is sad because I really like some other things that have been done lately to bring attention to hockey and the NHL.

Please expand. What deeper troubles? Record setting revenues? Record setting TV deals? People talk about all these issues with the NHL when the reality is the league as a whole is incredibly healthy. There are a few franchises that are struggling, although much of that has to do with the greater economic climate, but in general the NHL is leaps and bounds ahead of where it was just a few years ago.

[Muta]

What about markets like Cleveland and Cinncinati? I know nothing of these markets, but wouldn't a team in one of them mean a great regional rivalry for Columbus? Both cities have metro populations of 2.13 million and 2.25 million, respectively.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Muta

What about markets like Cleveland and Cinncinati? I know nothing of these markets, but wouldn't a team in one of them mean a great regional rivalry for Columbus? Both cities have metro populations of 2.13 million and 2.25 million, respectively.

Yep the extra 4 rivalry home games a year will make them a have franchise contributing to equalization and spending to the cap.

That is why Columbus is so successful:

166 miles to Detroit, 161 miles to Pittsburgh.

The 99 miles to Cinncy or 125 miles to Cleveland would provide them with a really close rivalry. The 241 miles to London Ontario brings Canada into play as a natural rival for Columbus. The 278 miles to Hamilton is just too far.


Calgary's Geographical rivals Edmonton: 172 miles Vancouver 653 miles and Winnipeg 852 miles.


Note that Columbus already has 2 natural rivals that are closer than Calgary - Edmonton

When Columbus was given a franchise the 4 million + people from Cleveland and Cincinnati were counted in the Columbus catchment area (people within 125 miles). Now that that didn't exactly pan out.......

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Well don't speak for everyone there. This argument has little to do with the way I feel about the situation and why it's important to me anyway. Though maybe you're right, there are probably still many blinded by emotion.

I'm not. There are many arguments for bringing teams to Canada and taking teams away from markets like Phoenix that rest on solid data and real world facts.

But an overwhelming majority of people don't even consider those things. All they know is that BETTMAN STOLE THE JETS AND NORDIQUES BECAUSE HE HATES CANADA!"

For every person who fits the former group, there are ten in the latter.

[hwy19man]

Originally Posted by Poe969

Winnipeg has mixed results until they found out the jets were leaving. I agree that the team should move, I'd prefer it to come to Canada because I know a team would do well in Hamilton or Quebec but I'd be open to a team going somehwere like Hartford, Seattle or KC because it might work there too.

Thing is, its not working in Phoenix and its bad for the league to have this hanging over its head.

Portland has to be in the list of cities.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by valo403

Please expand. What deeper troubles? Record setting revenues? Record setting TV deals? People talk about all these issues with the NHL when the reality is the league as a whole is incredibly healthy. There are a few franchises that are struggling, although much of that has to do with the greater economic climate, but in general the NHL is leaps and bounds ahead of where it was just a few years ago.

I guess it's the optics of all the clubs that are in trouble. A list that has grown even today. But I'll address those other things you brought up first.

First, the TV deal. Yes it's a step in the right direction, and it's the biggest one the NHL has gotten so far. But it's hardly a great deal. In an age where all communications companies are competing and overpaying for live content the price and term of the deal has left a lot of people saying that NBC underpaid for the contract. Now, I'm not sure how much more or what else the league could have done, but don't be fooled, it's the not 'OOOOOHH!' deal the league has advertised it as. It is what it is, a small deal for a league that is still seen as small and relatively unimportant.

Secondly, revenues. The revenues, while going up, are very one sided. The Canadian clubs are carrying 2-3 times their weight, and the big markets like New York are doing their part, but there are many many markets that are not bringing in anything. Now I know the argument is that years ago, Canadian clubs had the same problem, but there is one big difference. The dollar was 65 cents! That's almost an extra 50 percent (in CDN funds) they had to pay to their biggest expenditures, salary. Even with the economy being what it is in the States, these clubs can't claim the same amount of problems as those clubs had in the past. A lot of it is bad management or just poor markets (which is the point of this whole thread and argument).

So let's go back to those markets that are having trouble. We all know Atlanta was moved last year, and Phoenix is obviously the team talked about in this thread. But we also have big problems in Florida, Columbus, Dallas (though that will probably be resolved with a better owner), Nashville is still a big question mark, the New York Islanders have announced problems this offseason, and just today it was announced that Jersey is inches away from bankruptcy. That's 7 teams! Not counting the one moved last year. 25% of the league! What if 2 or 3 of those teams had to be relocated in a year? We'd have to go to contraction for sure. And while a lot of people would like that, and it might help in the long run, I don't think many people would think reducing the number of teams in the league is a sign of a healthy league.

I will admit, maybe it's not as bad as it seems, maybe it just is the optics of it. Other leagues move teams. It's happened (semi) recently in both the NFL and NBA. But it sure seems like there are big problems bubbling under the surface with the way the NHL is managing it's franchise locations.

And that is separate from a lot of issues people have with both reffing, discipline, and safety issues.

I would disagree that the NHL is very healthy, or that much more healthy that in has been in the past. While there is good news, there is a lot of bad news too. I would argue they balancing on a wire of sorts. A problem or two away from a catastrophe. But admittedly a good deal or two or healthy franchise or two away from writing a new success story.

[Jordan!]

In the FWIW department..

@rocandmanuch Roc from Roc&Manuch
#PhoenixCoyotes: Just told Jamison group in final negotiations and hope to make announcement this week

@rocandmanuch Roc from Roc&Manuch
More specifics on last tweet: Final terms to purchase team from NHL & keep team in AZ playing@Jobing.com. No major changes to hockey ops.

[troutman]

Part of Glendale Westgate City Center repossessed by lender

http://www.azcentral.com/community/g...possessed.html

Westgate City Center, the Glendale entertainment complex that serves as a pre-game party destination, is now partially lender-owned after a foreclosure auction Monday.

The lender iStar Financial took back the property from the developer, the Ellman Cos., after setting a minimum bid of $40 million and receiving no offers.

[PegCityFlamesFan]

Just read that article, cities and sports teams are in a rough spot, especially the longer it drags on.

[SuperMatt18]

Yeah the Phoenix-Glendale area was hit hard by the recession in the U.S.

As much as people like to get on PHX for not being a traditional hockey market the economic conditions in the US have not given them much of a chance to survive.

When the Football, Baseball, and Basketball teams are all struggling at times to make money, you know that the hockey team is going to be in tough times.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Daradon

I guess it's the optics of all the clubs that are in trouble. A list that has grown even today. But I'll address those other things you brought up first.

First, the TV deal. Yes it's a step in the right direction, and it's the biggest one the NHL has gotten so far. But it's hardly a great deal. In an age where all communications companies are competing and overpaying for live content the price and term of the deal has left a lot of people saying that NBC underpaid for the contract. Now, I'm not sure how much more or what else the league could have done, but don't be fooled, it's the not 'OOOOOHH!' deal the league has advertised it as. It is what it is, a small deal for a league that is still seen as small and relatively unimportant.

.

That's because it is...at least compared to the other 3 major sports, and it always will be. That doesnt mean, however, that the current TV deal isnt huge, because it is, but again not in comparison to the other 3.

The NHL will now be the flagship product on a brand new venture that is going to try and compete with the largest media brand in sports (ESPN)...that alone should tell you why the deal itself is such a big deal. If it's done correctly and the NBA lockout drags on as far as it appears, the whole thing could become even bigger than anticipated. Again though, that must be tempered with the fact that hockey will never ever be as big in the US as other sports, but moreso it can be grown to get a piece of that pie in its next negotiations with the different media entities. So you are correct...it is what it is, but perception of what it is and what some seem to believe it should be is where people lose perspective and think this deal isbt "all that", when in fact it really is a tremendous deal for the NHL.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by transplant99

That's because it is...at least compared to the other 3 major sports, and it always will be. That doesnt mean, however, that the current TV deal isnt huge, because it is, but again not in comparison to the other 3.

The NHL will now be the flagship product on a brand new venture that is going to try and compete with the largest media brand in sports (ESPN)...that alone should tell you why the deal itself is such a big deal. If it's done correctly and the NBA lockout drags on as far as it appears, the whole thing could become even bigger than anticipated. Again though, that must be tempered with the fact that hockey will never ever be as big in the US as other sports, but moreso it can be grown to get a piece of that pie in its next negotiations with the different media entities. So you are correct...it is what it is, but perception of what it is and what some seem to believe it should be is where people lose perspective and think this deal isbt "all that", when in fact it really is a tremendous deal for the NHL.

Hey, like I said above, and in previous posts, it's a step in the right direction. Which means that yes, it's an important foot in the door, they could build on it in the future. That is generally what a step in the right direction means. I understand what it means and agree with how big and important it could possibly be. But it isn't yet. It's not a guarantee, especially if there are problems bubbling below the surface. That's kinda the point of what I'm saying. Sure, if all goes well, they should be able to build on the deal. But you can say that about any first step.

But if the franchises are in as much trouble as they appear to be, (oh, and I forgot to add St. Louis too, which is also rumoured to be near bankruptcy, that's EIGHT teams now, not counting Atlanta just being moved) then they may never get that chance to grow that deal. They may finally get the butter, just as the bread goes moldy so to speak.

So I was just replying as to why I thought there were problems bubbling below the surface and how the management of the league may not be as rosy as it looks. It'll take time to know one way or the other obviously. But I'm not sure how one wouldn't wonder how a different management group or commissioner would have handled this league and if it would share the same problems and success as this one. Though they love to bullet point their successes, like this deal, I'm not so sure they should be applauded. There's enough bad to go along with the good.

[tjinaz]

The issues in Dallas are completely different than the issues in Atlanta. In Atlanta ASG simply had no interest in Hockey, they took some losses and bailed. In Dallas Hicks got really really over extended in his other sports teams and is forced to sell. To say either of these are a reflection on the management of the league is a stretch. The League has no control over what other financial decisions its owners make.

Over all the league is improving its support for teams and providing excellent opportunities to market and grow the game.