CBE to trim 200-250 jobs

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Sliver

but really I don't understand why more teachers aren't in this thread defending how great their job is and what a great life decision they made to enter the profession.

Judging by the rest of this thread; perhaps they aren't interested in being torn a "new one."

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by fundmark19

silver its funny you tell people to become teachers and my mom tells people to not become teachers because the job isn't actually like what everyone thinks and the schooling doesn't prepare you for it either

Haha, I guess until you walk a mile you don't know. I went five years with just two weeks off per year and thought it was inhumane. I loved my job, but there are a lot of people out there that really only do have two weeks off per year, in spite of what people here say. It's probably less an issue in professional-type jobs, and it seems like a lot of people on CP are professionals.

Based on my experience with just two weeks off, and given how much I value time with my friends and family, I may overvalue time off compared to other people. I would put up with a lot of crap for three months off.

Maybe your mom would think different if she had to work a full year with only two weeks off, and maybe I would think different if I had to work as a teacher for a year/nine months (a bit of a dig - I can't control myself ).

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Judging by the rest of this thread; perhaps they aren't interested in being torn a "new one."

I think it depends on what side of this you're on. I've been taking a lot of crap here, too. Been called a fool, close-minded, etc. I haven't thrown back any personal insults.

And one guy did...I thanked his post and quoted it and said "great post."

[Kybosh]

Originally Posted by Shazam

The O&G jobs are available. If you're a job seeker, then they are a very viable source of employment.

So you want to remove them because they make your argument look bad?

I have no idea why Sliver gets such a hate on for teachers.

I haven't actually argued a position in this thread though. I'm just saying that contrary to popular belief, a large amount of Calgary does not work for O&G providers and does not get that much time off to start. As I said before, the vast majority of new grads get 2-3 weeks vacation with minimal (if any) flex days. The perks that people get at large provider companies are not representative of the rest of Calgary.

For my position on teachers with CBE, I'll quote my old response:

It seems to me that a lot of the pro-teacher arguments involve people who clearly go above and beyond what is actually required of them. I'm sure they are great teachers because of this but. . .just because they do these things does not mean that all teachers are required to. For example, buying classroom tools out of your own pocket is not required. Like everyone else in this thread (haha) I have a bunch of CBE teacher friends and it seems like there is a new trend to not spend any of your own money for your classroom. The ultimate goal is for the financial plans to be restructured so that they won't rely on teachers to use their own money.

As for how much teachers work after hours, I do know that in addition to regular class time they are also required to put in extra curricular efforts such as being a football coach or something. The lesson planning/marking is also mostly done after hours but the more experienced you are the easier those duties become. Teachers work hard but I would say they don't work any harder than than any other career I know of. In this day and age, everyone I know puts in extra hours at night or on the weekends. Tis life.

As for the vacation time, yes, teachers get more than any other profession I've ever heard of. All of my friends never do any work over the summer and a lot of them proceed to take 6 to 8 week vacations abroad. They go back to work about 5-7 days before the school year begins from what I've seen. One thing a lot of people are considering though is the exchange of salary for the time off? Would you rather have the time off from work for a reduced salary or work more from increased pay? Tough question in my opinion.

All in all, I appreciate the social service that teachers do but I'm kind of sick of all my teacher buddies bragging to me about how much time they get off . . . dinks . If you want to talk about a crappy teaching gig lets talk about being a sessional instructor at a university haha.

I understand the frustration that new education grads are feeling however. When I started grad school, all my friends and colleagues were snapping up amazing pharmaceutical research jobs with very high salaries, signing bonuses, company perks etc. By the time I finished grad school, an estimated 300,000 pharmaceutical industry jobs had been lost and nobody could find a position. The entire pharmaceutical research game had fundamentally changed and I decided it was not as lucrative as I had once hoped. After a lot of soul searching, I decided to move my career in a different direction.

[tanguay'sstillgood]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I don't understand why more teachers aren't in this thread defending how great their job is and what a great life decision they made to enter the profession.

.

Ok, I'll tell you why I'm not.

1) I could give a s**t less what you think of my job, as you obviously don't know enough about it to have a reasonable conversation.

2) It's been done a billion times on this board. If you would have tried the search function you would have seen this, and this thread could have remained about layoffs, parent concerns, and class sizes.

I could teach you about the search function, but I don't wanna do my job for free or on a day off.

And, no, I'm not going to respond to whatever you say to this, as it's a waste of time (and, as I said, your thoughts on the subject mean very little to me).

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by tanguay'sstillgood

Ok, I'll tell you why I'm not.

1) I could give a s**t less what you think of my job, as you obviously don't know enough about it to have a reasonable conversation.

2) It's been done a billion times on this board. If you would have tried the search function you would have seen this, and this thread could have remained about layoffs, parent concerns, and class sizes.

I could teach you about the search function, but I don't wanna do my job for free or on a day off.

And, no, I'm not going to respond to whatever you say to this, as it's a waste of time (and, as I said, your thoughts on the subject mean very little to me).

lol you have to be kidding dude!

[Yasa]

So, Sliver, just to clarify; you respect and appreciate teachers and don't believe their job is necessarily easy; but you what you're saying is they are fairly paid/compensated, it is just the ungrateful ones that you have an issue with?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Yasa

So, Sliver, just to clarify; you respect and appreciate teachers and don't believe their job is necessarily easy; but you what you're saying is they are fairly paid/compensated, it is just the ungrateful ones that you have an issue with?

Yes I respect teachers and appreciate what they do. It's also not an easy job during the school years.

If it was the exact same job but with an average amount of days off, I would think the pay is reasonable. With a quarter of the year off, however, I think the pay is high versus comparable positions in the private sector, but not so much that it's a grave injustice or anything...just on the high side. I can live with it, but I wish they'd multiply their salary by 25% to see what their salary actually is for a full-year's work in these discussions. It's pretty damn good. Plus add all the money they'll get in their pension over their lifetime and average that out over the years they'll work and their salary goes even higher.

What I absolutely cannot stand is when teachers think it's unfair. And as with any disagreement, I can't stand when they bring untruths into the debate. Not to harp on it, but yeah_baby's point that they only get 1.5 months off totally annoys me, and it's not the first time I've heard teachers downplay how much time they get off to make their lot seem worse than it is. They literally get twice that amount of time off.

Another thing I don't like is how the union tries to spin things to get the teachers riled up - and how much it works. Look at this 50% figure people have been throwing around (50% of teachers quit within their first five years). Not only is it hogwash, it is meaningless without comparing it against the rate at which other people in positions outside of teaching leave their jobs. But it makes it sound like there is this big problem of retention so we should give the union what it asks for before more teachers quit! Of course it's not true - there are more teachers than we need right now. People are saying it's so tough so people are quitting and in the next paragraph consoling each other over how hard it is to get a teaching gig because the supply of teachers outstrips the demand.

Oops, went on a tangent. Yes, it is the ungrateful ones I have a problem with. And I'm not even sure if it's a lack of gratitude. I don't think they're necessarily being obtuse or anything - I know they fully believe what they are saying. But I think there is a case to be made that teaching has a very unusual compensation component that has a lot of value and they're not seeing just how valuable that is. And when it's pointed out to them, they get angry and call you a fool and say they don't give a s**t what you think, etc.

I'm bad at making up these scenarios, but I'll try anyway...would you rather be a billionaire that works 7 days a week, 365 days a year, or would you rather have a modest middle-class income and have 3-months off per year with complete freedom to do whatever you want with that time, and spend it with whomever you want. I think most people would rather have a modest income and have 3-months off per year. If you agree with my scenario, you're admitting the value of time off is worth more than billions of dollars. Does that make sense?

[Rubicant]

Originally Posted by Sliver

If it was the exact same job but with an average amount of days off, I would think the pay is reasonable. With a quarter of the year off, however, I think the pay is high versus comparable positions in the private sector, but not so much that it's a grave injustice or anything...just on the high side. I can live with it, but I wish they'd multiply their salary by 25% to see what their salary actually is for a full-year's work in these discussions. It's pretty damn good. Plus add all the money they'll get in their pension over their lifetime and average that out over the years they'll work and their salary goes even higher.

I think the pay is reasonable, including all the time off. If they either paid me 75% of what I make to make it based on 'what I work' or gave me the same salary but somehow significantly cut my time off, quite frankly I'd find something else to do with my life. Given all the conditions of employment, the salary is fair.

Also, when I'm at work, I work. I can't tell you how many times I get home from work to find an insane number of emails from friends in the private sector. A large number of them tell me that the number of hours they actually work during the day is nothing compared to the number of hours they are there. That's not everywhere I'm sure, but again it illustrates the difficulty in determining what someone in a field you don't work in 'deserves' to get paid.

As far as the pension is concerned, yeah it is awesome, especially here in Ontario. That said, about 12% of my pay goes into the plan, so it's not like I'm getting it for nothing.

[Sliver]

Yeah, there is for sure some slack time in the private sector, too.

I know you pay into the pension but the "sure-thing" aspect of the pay-back is fairly unique to teaching, too. Or maybe just government in general, but either way I think teachers sometimes don't admit to just how awesome a benefit it is because it is more advantageous to their future negotiations to broadcast the negatives about their jobs to the detriment of a more fair representation of their total compensation. I absolutely do not put you in that camp and in fact really appreciate your opinion.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I would love to hear from the people on this board that work a seven hour day and get six weeks off a year with paid OT and bonuses. Do you really believe that's normal in the business world? Maybe there are a handful of exceptions, but come on.

I know many people in the professional world that this is the case. Do they work the actual 7 hour days? Not all of them, but they get paid for extra work that they do through OT or bonuses. Teachers do not get OT or bonuses.

I will ask you this, would you be happy if a teacher were to work a regular work week 7.5 hour day regular 3 week holiday but get paid OT for all the extra work they put in during the year? If you are ok with this then they would be paid a lot more than what they are paid now if you include the OT. OR they could use the OT that they bank and take the extra time off during the summer which would even out.

If you really crunch the numbers man it all works out with the extra time off.

You also have to consider that a teacher that has taught for 30 years gets the same amount of time off as a teacher who has taught for 1 year. No where else in the professional field is it like this. The more time you have in the more time you get in annual leave. Most government workers after 30 years of service get 7-10 weeks of vacation leave.

You keep trying to compare teachers to other professions and the fact that it is such a different profession you cannot compare them.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Rubicant

As far as the pension is concerned, yeah it is awesome, especially here in Ontario. That said, about 12% of my pay goes into the plan, so it's not like I'm getting it for nothing.

Your pension manager has also made some good investments. I work for the federal government. In the 1990's the Liberal government raided our pension plan, stealing 35 billion dollars to pay down the deficit and now we are short in our fund and our rates are going up. Then you have people like Silver complaining how the public sector has such a cushy retirement package not knowing that our pension paid for balancing the budget.

[SebC]

If it were up to me, I'd simply eliminate defined benefit pensions altogether.

[I_H8_Crawford]

Originally Posted by SebC

If it were up to me, I'd simply eliminate defined benefit pensions altogether.

DBs are on the way out.

Actuaries are already working on ways to keep their jobs relevant in the future as more and more companies move away from DB and into DC.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by I_H8_Crawford

Actuaries are already working on ways to keep their jobs relevant in the future as more and more companies move away from DB and into DC.

O/T, but actuaries will be still needed for other things (e.g. life insurance).

[Flickered Flame]

I am not even going to get into most of what has been discussed in this thread but to the few of you who have recently graduated, keep in mind that at this time of year, when budgets are being cut and money is being held back, the outlook for potential jobs always looks terrible but as more and more decisions get made there will be a few jobs available. Few being the key word but there will be some. Most grads who are willing to travel or move outside of major centers are more likely to find a teaching job.

I am not surprised at some of the comments towards the teaching profession in this thread because usually, people who have never done it, never really understand what it actually takes to be a teacher. It doesn't help when the government of this province is very good at making teachers look bad, which is the case right now. Because us teachers didn't give up our raise, the government has cut small class initiatives. People and parents see that as the teachers being greedy. The reality is when teachers signed their 5 year contracts, 4 years ago, it was the government who proposed the yearly % increase based on the weekly index but now they want to take it back because they have mismanaged their finances?

In the end, the government can hold back as much money as they want because I will continue to make a difference in teenagers lives. I will continue to teach my kids how to be problem solvers rather than spoon feed them answers, I will continue to coach both basketball and badminton, I will continue to be the technology lead teacher in my school so that I can help other teachers become more proficient in using technology in their classrooms, I will continue to teach concepts with outside of the box lessons, I will continue to be a counselor to those students who have behaviour issues, emotional issues, who lack social skills or issues they have at home, I will continue to make a difference despite having this black cloud over my head because I am a teacher in Alberta.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Flickered Flame

I am not surprised at some of the comments towards the teaching profession in this thread because usually, people who have never done it, never really understand what it actually takes to be a teacher. It doesn't help when the government of this province is very good at making teachers look bad, which is the case right now. Because us teachers didn't give up our raise, the government has cut small class initiatives. People and parents see that as the teachers being greedy. The reality is when teachers signed their 5 year contracts, 4 years ago, it was the government who proposed the yearly % increase based on the weekly index but now they want to take it back because they have mismanaged their finances?

I'm not sure if it's necessarily greedy, but we do see it as out of touch with reality. The global economy has changed since you signed your last contract four years ago. It would be pretty strange to expect any increases with nothing in the news for the past two or three years but talk of a poor economy. The government has made some mistakes with their finances for sure, but to pin Alberta's financial state entirely on mismanagement is not fair.

Bonuses in the private sector have all decreased since 2007. I've heard teachers defend their compensation versus the private sector on the basis that they don't get bonuses. Well, bonuses have decreased since your last bonus signing.

Originally Posted by Flickered Flame

the end, the government can hold back as much money as they want because I will continue to make a difference in teenagers lives. I will continue to teach my kids how to be problem solvers rather than spoon feed them answers, I will continue to coach both basketball and badminton, I will continue to be the technology lead teacher in my school so that I can help other teachers become more proficient in using technology in their classrooms, I will continue to teach concepts with outside of the box lessons, I will continue to be a counselor to those students who have behaviour issues, emotional issues, who lack social skills or issues they have at home, I will continue to make a difference despite having this black cloud over my head because I am a teacher in Alberta.

Good for you...I respect that a lot. Often teachers vote to strike when they don't get what they want, but obviously you won't do that. Thank you.

[Mr.Coffee]

In general it kind of bugs me when people act like they're "oh so hard done by"- regardless of occupation. But anyway.

In my opinion, and based on my value structure, I value education a lot. It ranks probably even number 1 for me. I think a society should never sacrifice its future. Specifically, I'm referring to our government's responsibility to budget for education and I truly do wish our government did a better job (basically at everything, I really feel this government has let down Alberta- but in education primarily). I have no problem with a budget that provides heavily for education, resources, teacher's wages, etc.

When education is under-funded, you have less resources and generally don't attract the better people. I think you want to avoid a broken educational system like they have in the U.S., which is deeply divided based on how much money you make and which churns out a repulsive number of highly uneducated people who are so ignorant to the world they live in it is honestly stunning, being the wealth that the country has comparatively internationally. The fact that people like Glenn Beck can even get a tv show is a black cloud over their country. Bit of a hyperbole statement, but i'm sure you get my point.

At the end of the day, this thread I think illustrates it best- the problem is the union.

The union prevents the teachers that deserve $150K / year from making it and it protects teachers that deserve to be fired, freeing up their salary to give to the good folks. Unions are destructive, they more or less destroyed the automobile industry in America and allocate money where it doesn't need to be (like administration?). There is no motivation in guaranteed pay and a safety net like a union. I just fundamentally strongly disagree with having a union, we aren't working 19 hours a day in a black smoke factory anymore so they've essentially just turned into massive lobby-esque organizations that harbour inefficiencies.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Sliver

No, Encana is an exception and it's misleading to compare the time off teachers get - three months being the norm for every single one of them - to the best example in the private sector, which is still less than teachers. It's way more fair to the argument to compare the time off teachers get to the average in the private sector, which is way less than the Encana example.

Encana is not an exception in the O&G industry. You keep think your experience is the average, and it is not. if anything many of the smaller players have to have great perks because they can't pay people the salaries that the big boys do.

I don't hate teachers at all. I hate when they complain about being undercomensated when they're not. They have a very good deal...it's bizarre they don't appreciate it.

Most teachers appreciate it, fer crying out loud. On the other hand they have to deal with immature crotchfruit so I'd say it's a wash at best. You're taking your anecdotal evidence and extending it to all teachers. And you also take union negotiations at face value, which really you should stop doing.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I would love to hear from the people on this board that work a seven hour day and get six weeks off a year with paid OT and bonuses. Do you really believe that's normal in the business world? Maybe there are a handful of exceptions, but come on.

I get a lot of time off working O&G (not EnCana, but comparable). I'm also in my desk by 7:30, and don't leave until after 5, 7.5 hours/day plus good time off isn't out there anywhere - I've looked.