A Game of Thrones **BOOKS OFF LIMITS** v2

[Yeah_Baby]

Someone report Jammies! He mentioned book characters yet to appear on the show!

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

Someone report Jammies! He mentioned book characters yet to appear on the show!

Shame! Shame! Shame!

[troutman]

Originally Posted by jammies

Those of you saying the characters are neither entirely good or evil are missing out on the characters that actually are entirely evil: Ramsay, the Mountain, Ser Trent and Ser Baros, Vargo Hoat and all of his "Brave Companions" and probably more I'm forgetting. Who is a truly good person? Ser Barristan Selmy, maybe, but even he served the Mad King in his youth, or so I seem to recall. Samwell Tarly is maybe another, although he is certainly a coward and an oathbreaker.

That's the one big complaint I have about the show, that the only absolutes that are shown are dark ones. Yes, people are generally flawed, but the same terrible events that produce monsters also produce heroes. There doesn't have to be a happy ending, but is it too much to ask for a few more random acts of happiness along the way?

The D&D Alignments for GOT characters. Agree?

http://nerdist.com/game-of-thrones-c...dd-alignments/

Tyrion Lannister – Neutral
Daenerys Targaryen – Neutral Good
Jon Snow – Chaotic Good
Cersei Lannister – Neutral Evil
Brienne of Tarth – Lawful Good
Arya Stark – Lawful Neutral
Joffrey Baratheon – Chaotic Evil

http://crazyeddiethemotie.blogspot.c...alignment.html

[Ashartus]

I don't buy Jon as chaotic - I think he's more neutral good. I'd classify Arya as true neutral.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Has Tyrion done anything bad?

Jon Snow is objectively good.

Same with Ned, but he's dead of course.

Sir Davos?

Lots of good characters.

Tyrion is a drunk who frequents whorehouses and was involved in trying to hunt down Dany and kill her, And he did murder his father.

Jon Snow is another oathbreaker, which, although rather quaint to modern tastes, is a pretty big deal in a feudal society. He doesn't get the Caesar treatment because he is disliked, he gets it because he goes against everything the Night's Watch stands for and which he swore to uphold. He's definitely not good in the same sense that Ramsay is evil, which is what I'm getting at.

Ned was honourable but I don't think that is the same as good. He and Stannis are very similar characters, and nobody thinks Stannis is good. Ned just never was placed into the same situations as Stannis.

Ser Davos was a smuggler and criminal before Stannis elevated him. Not sure how that is unqualified benevolence either.

That being said, Maester Aemon is unreservedly good, even going so far as to renounce his family and power. So I guess he is the one counter-example, but he is a pretty bit player and for all we know he secretly screwed goats or something, which will be revealed in a Sam flashback as he is raped by a gang of other students in the Citadel.

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

Someone report Jammies! He mentioned book characters yet to appear on the show!

Who isn't in the show? Vargo Hoat? I thought he was in season two when Arya and her pals get captured and are serving in the castle. It's all so long ago now I conflate the books with the show. Which is why I only figured it's safe now to come in here to comment.

[Bobblehead]

You can't dismiss your one good example of good by saying "but he is a pretty bit player and for all we know he secretly screwed goats or something" but still laud Hoat as evil when he was an even smaller bit player. He may have some redeeming qualities that are just never part of the story.

So far I think Ramsay is the only one we have seen enough of to make a "no redeeming qualities" assumption. Even the Ser Meryn and Ser Trent are on the Kingsguard, so I would expect that at some point in their history they have done enough service to get appointed to that prestigious position.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

You can't dismiss your one good example of good by saying "but he is a pretty bit player and for all we know he secretly screwed goats or something" but still laud Hoat as evil when he was an even smaller bit player.

I can't? I'm pretty sure I just did!

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by jammies

Jon Snow is another oathbreaker, which, although rather quaint to modern tastes, is a pretty big deal in a feudal society. He doesn't get the Caesar treatment because he is disliked, he gets it because he goes against everything the Night's Watch stands for and which he swore to uphold. He's definitely not good in the same sense that Ramsay is evil, which is what I'm getting at.

Oath of the Night's Watch:

"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come."

Which part does he break? He banged that redhead because he was spying, right? Didn't Mormont or whatever send him on that mission or did I completely confuse things? I'd say he is absolutely keeping his oath to recruit wildlings - his job is to guard the realms of men and he's doing that by getting their help against the white walkers. IDK, though, I just kind of enjoy each episode without necessarily remembering how everything ties together. But I am unclear on what component of his oath you think he broke.

[Oling_Roachinen]

The Night's watch conspirators believe Jon broke his oaths because he opened the gates to the Wildlings who had been their enemies.

But the oath, as Jon pointed out, is to protect the realms of men and the Wildlings are men. They had forgotten their real enemy. I don't think we can say that show Jon was an oathbreaker knowing what he know of him.

Unless we're talking about that time he ran away for like 5 minutes and the other Night's watch brought him back.

[GreenLantern]

Or when he slept with Ygritte, that is definitely breaking an oath.. but an oath worth breaking!!! Amirite???

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Which part does he break? He banged that redhead because he was spying, right? Didn't Mormont or whatever send him on that mission or did I completely confuse things? I'd say he is absolutely keeping his oath to recruit wildlings - his job is to guard the realms of men and he's doing that by getting their help against the white walkers. IDK, though, I just kind of enjoy each episode without necessarily remembering how everything ties together. But I am unclear on what component of his oath you think he broke.

When he banged Ygritte in that pool he wasn't doing it for The Nights Watch and the Realms of men, he was doing it for tiny Jon Snuuuwww.

I wonder if he yelled out Winter is Coming?

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by jammies

Tyrion is a drunk who frequents whorehouses and was involved in trying to hunt down Dany and kill her, And he did murder his father.



Jon Snow is another oathbreaker, which, although rather quaint to modern tastes, is a pretty big deal in a feudal society. He doesn't get the Caesar treatment because he is disliked, he gets it because he goes against everything the Night's Watch stands for and which he swore to uphold. He's definitely not good in the same sense that Ramsay is evil, which is what I'm getting at.



Ned was honourable but I don't think that is the same as good. He and Stannis are very similar characters, and nobody thinks Stannis is good. Ned just never was placed into the same situations as Stannis.



Ser Davos was a smuggler and criminal before Stannis elevated him. Not sure how that is unqualified benevolence either.



That being said, Maester Aemon is unreservedly good, even going so far as to renounce his family and power. So I guess he is the one counter-example, but he is a pretty bit player and for all we know he secretly screwed goats or something, which will be revealed in a Sam flashback as he is raped by a gang of other students in the Citadel.







Who isn't in the show? Vargo Hoat? I thought he was in season two when Arya and her pals get captured and are serving in the castle. It's all so long ago now I conflate the books with the show. Which is why I only figured it's safe now to come in here to comment.

Nope. I'm pretty sure the Brave Companions haven't been on the show. But I could be wrong. It doesn't really matter.

I was being cheeky anyways.

[jammies]

Implicit in having no wife and fathering no children is no sexy redheads. Further, while you can argue over "guarding the realms of men", traditionally that is far more applicable to the wildlings being the ones from whom the realms are protected, and Jon's interpretation is a heretical one at best. He also allows Sam to live in what is pretty well a marriage, despite being the Lord Commander who is supposed to put the kibosh on such milksop ways.

I really like Jon's character, btw, but he's just not good in the sense that some characters are evil; his goodness is a struggle, while these others are not only comfortable in their evil but positively delight in it. Focusing on who is good or evil isn't the point, the point is that there's Evil with a capital E, but no Good with a capital G opposing it. The Lord of Light insists on human sacrifice, the Many-Faced God has assassin/priests, the Seven are apparently good with either fanatic puritans or corrupt lechers running their church; anyone who has access to power inevitably has to murder to keep it; anyone innocent gets raped or killed or brutalized.

Maybe that's what the story demands, but I don't think so. I do really like the show, but on binge watching it I get the impression that the writing is confusing dark and cruel with deep and meaningful.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by jammies

Implicit in having no wife and fathering no children is no sexy redheads. Further, while you can argue over "guarding the realms of men", traditionally that is far more applicable to the wildlings being the ones from whom the realms are protected, and Jon's interpretation is a heretical one at best. He also allows Sam to live in what is pretty well a marriage, despite being the Lord Commander who is supposed to put the kibosh on such milksop ways.

I really like Jon's character, btw, but he's just not good in the sense that some characters are evil; his goodness is a struggle, while these others are not only comfortable in their evil but positively delight in it. Focusing on who is good or evil isn't the point, the point is that there's Evil with a capital E, but no Good with a capital G opposing it. The Lord of Light insists on human sacrifice, the Many-Faced God has assassin/priests, the Seven are apparently good with either fanatic puritans or corrupt lechers running their church; anyone who has access to power inevitably has to murder to keep it; anyone innocent gets raped or killed or brutalized.

Maybe that's what the story demands, but I don't think so. I do really like the show, but on binge watching it I get the impression that the writing is confusing dark and cruel with deep and meaningful.

See, but if you're looking for a Good character, you have it in John. Maybe he is breaking his oath, but he is doing it for Good reasons. That's what you wanted, jammies. Allow yourself to enjoy it.

[Yeah_Baby]

Life is nasty, brutish, and short-David Benioff and DB Weiss.

They're the ones who said that right?

[MrMastodonFarm]

Hey, hey hey hey. Enough you guys and skirting close to the edge with your book talk.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Hey, hey hey hey. Enough you guys and skirting close to the edge with your book talk.

Every time someone mentions the word book, a Joffrey takes the wings off an angel.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

Every time someone mentions the word book, a Joffrey takes the wings off an angel.

Odds are he was doing that anyways

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

When he banged Ygritte in that pool he wasn't doing it for The Nights Watch and the Realms of men, he was doing it for tiny Jon Snuuuwww.

No way. Wildling who probably hadn't bathed in months. There's a reason she hadn't had that done to her before, because not even a Wildling was that nasty. He went above and beyond his duties as a sworn brother in that cave.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Rose Leslie