Brad Treliving needs to go

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

A good GM is not judged by missed picks and things out of his control like you've mentioned. A good GM knows how to pivot, and when to evaluate players.

When Treliving sat repeatedly on moving players like Monahan, Bennett for as long as he did (and is now doing with Gaudreau), it was an absolute gut punch to this organization. How do you come back into this season with both of these guys who had clearly regressed and/or had been overvalued to begin with? He killed any remaining value and sent a message to the team that this kind of mediocre play is tolerated.

I’ve been advocating Treliving move those guys for over a year now. Before it was cool. But in fairness to Treliving, this has been the hardest 12 months to make an NHL trade in the history of the league. How many trades of front-line players have we seen in that period? Four? I expect the best return he could drum up for Monahan would shock fans. If and when Monahan and Gaudreau are dealt, CP will melt down over the return.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

What hockey deals are you going to make with Monahan, Giordano, and Backlund right now that are actually going to help the team? Other scouts and GMs are watching the corpse of Monahan out there just as much as we are.

Make deals for the future. Don't try to Phaneuf 2.0 this. Just move on and accept defeat.

The only way to consistent, long-term success in this league is through the draft. You NEED a number 1 centre in this league to compete. The only way to get those players is through the draft.

Take some pain for a few seasons and do it right. It just delays the inevitable otherwise.

Not gonna feel enough pain unless we move Markstrom. I'm not even convinced he's a perrenial Vezina candidate, but I think he keeps us out of the bottom 5.

Originally Posted by Pointman

Excellent post. You can add Burke to Feaster path.

Except he was just hired by PIT...

He did set CGY on the wrong path just as he did in TOR. Unfortunately ownership/BT chose to keep doubling down.

Originally Posted by Vinny01

What do you mean look what the Leafs did? They were in purgatory for a decade before they got Matthews. Outside of one fluke playoff appearance in the lockout shortened season they were a decade without playoffs and had top 10 picks from 09, 12, 14, 15 )not to mention trading them away in 10, 11).

And what have they accomplished? Less than Treliving’s Flames

So much this. TOR is still a deeply flawed team. Next year they'll probably be scrapping with MTL for the 4th slot since TBL, BOS, and FLA are back in their division. If they didn't have BUF, OTT, and DET in their division they probably have a tougher time making the playoffs these past few years.

Let's see them make it out of the 1st rd in a normal year before we crown them.

Originally Posted by Ashasx

If the Flames trade every single roster player, including younger players like Tkachuk, Mangiapane, Valimaki, etc. Yes, it would probably take 5-7 years.

But rebuilds are not exactly linear. We saw how the Avs went from progressing one season, to falling back for a couple, to now being a juggernaut in the league.

Sounds like you're actually advocating a re-tool...?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I’ve been advocating Treliving move those guys for over a year now. Before it was cool. But in fairness to Treliving, this has been the hardest 12 months to make an NHL trade in the history of the league. How many trades of front-line players have we seen in that period? Four? I expect the best return he could drum up for Monahan would shock fans. If and when Monahan and Gaudreau are dealt, CP will melt down over the return.

As I argued then, last TDL was the best time - though I think it would still be a bit underwhelming, it would have turned a new leaf on this group.

I have to imagine PIT would have paid more for Johnny than they did Zucker. As would BOS instead of Kase.

[genetic_phreek]

Trust the process

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Sounds like you're actually advocating a re-tool...?

No... just noting that even the deepest rebuilding teams don't trade everybody.

I'm not against trading anyone on the roster, but I'd be against trading pieces like Mangiapane and Valimaki for futures.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by keenan87

I would agree. I think if done right, a re-tool can work. However, the core does need to be blown up.

It can work as long as we can trade our non-producing core for better, younger ,cheaper and more productive players.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

A good GM is not judged by missed picks and things out of his control like you've mentioned. A good GM knows how to pivot, and when to evaluate players.

When Treliving sat repeatedly on moving players like Monahan, Bennett for as long as he did (and is now doing with Gaudreau), it was an absolute gut punch to this organization. How do you come back into this season with both of these guys who had clearly regressed and/or had been overvalued to begin with? He killed any remaining value and sent a message to the team that this kind of mediocre play is tolerated.

You also have to ask how you continue to miss on evaluating guys like Brouwer, Neal, Stone and Hamonic so badly. They seem like miniscule moves, but they cost the franchise serious cap space and significant draft capital that continues to ripple through to today's roster and its ability to upgrade the top 6 RW position.

Agree with a lot here. Brad Treliving’s bad UFA deals prevented the Flames’ from finding depth in some key areas. He chose to go forward with a relatively “weaker” core group, so he couldn’t afford to make too many mistakes and in the end, he made too many big ones.

Now the holes that he’s been trying fill are only getting bigger and everyday it’s looking more and more like a sink hole. His pro scouting staff also did a poor job of finding the right pieces to work with the pairs they had going into the season. Leivo, Ritchie, Simon and Nordstrom were not the right answers. I suppose, had Treliving had more cap space they could’ve afforded better winger depth and thus, maybe the lines would’ve worked out better; or better yet, maybe Tre could’ve traded for a better center instead of realizing more than half way into his tenure that his best RW was his better center all along. Now Monahan and Gaudreau still don’t have a functional RW 7 years into his role. Not a good look Brad.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

A good GM is not judged by missed picks and things out of his control like you've mentioned. A good GM knows how to pivot, and when to evaluate players.

When Treliving sat repeatedly on moving players like Monahan, Bennett for as long as he did (and is now doing with Gaudreau), it was an absolute gut punch to this organization. How do you come back into this season with both of these guys who had clearly regressed and/or had been overvalued to begin with? He killed any remaining value and sent a message to the team that this kind of mediocre play is tolerated.

You also have to ask how you continue to miss on evaluating guys like Brouwer, Neal, Stone and Hamonic so badly. They seem like miniscule moves, but they cost the franchise serious cap space and significant draft capital that continues to ripple through to today's roster and its ability to upgrade the top 6 RW position.

Mason Raymond is another awful evaluation, that is almost forgotten. 3.125M per year contract that was bought out. For comparison, Brouwer was 4.25 per year that was bought out.

Ironically, flamesnation.ca called Raymond "A quality first signing for Brad Treliving". Well, it was not. Treliving's first signing ended up being bought out and it was a sign of things to come

https://flamesnation.ca/2014/07/01/m...th-the-flames/

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Mason Raymond is another awful evaluation, that is almost forgotten. 3.125M per year contract that was bought out. For comparison, Brouwer was 4.25 per year that was bought out.

Ironically, flamesnation.ca called Raymond "A quality first signing for Brad Treliving". Well, it was not. Treliving's first signing ended up being bought out and it was a sign of things to come

https://flamesnation.ca/2014/07/01/m...th-the-flames/

LOL. I guess he actually had to buy out Raymond in order to afford Brouwer.

Why on eart was a team up against the cap and trading away 35OA picks for a single year of Brian Elliott like 2-3 years into a rebuild?

[Vinny01]

I have said it before and I will say it again. That 2015 Flames run reminds me so much of the Sven Baertschi emergency call up.

Flames were supposed to be in the mix to get McDavid but the team overachieved thanks in part to huge seasons from rookie Johnny Gaudreau and sophomore Sean Monahan as well as career years from Hudler, Wideman and until he went down Gio.

That team was horrible analytically and had a PDO that showed they were getting a lot of luck. I think once they beat the Canucks it cemented to ownership that this team is ready to compete.

Sven was having an epic draft+1 season averaging 2ppg. He gets the rare emergency call up from junior and scored 3 games in a row and has Flames fans anointing him the next one. I think Sven thought it would all come easy and he was not prepared for the bumpy road ahead.

Had those little runs not occurred a more natural slow path to building a winning team/top player could of happened.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I’ve been advocating Treliving move those guys for over a year now. Before it was cool. But in fairness to Treliving, this has been the hardest 12 months to make an NHL trade in the history of the league. How many trades of front-line players have we seen in that period? Four? I expect the best return he could drum up for Monahan would shock fans. If and when Monahan and Gaudreau are dealt, CP will melt down over the return.

I said over the summer that Monahan needed to be moved for whatever draft capital you could get in one of the deepest drafts in memory. Sign a vet at a low salary and assess the club closer to the deadline.

That didn't happen so now I say you move him for whatever picks you can get at the deadline and see what moves are available at the draft to improve for next year.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Mason Raymond is another awful evaluation, that is almost forgotten. 3.125M per year contract that was bought out. For comparison, Brouwer was 4.25 per year that was bought out.

Ironically, flamesnation.ca called Raymond "A quality first signing for Brad Treliving". Well, it was not. Treliving's first signing ended up being bought out and it was a sign of things to come

https://flamesnation.ca/2014/07/01/m...th-the-flames/

I'm having a hard time seeing how Raymond's signing would have changed the trajectory of this club. Pretty inconsequential at the end of the day, I would say. No point in crying over spilled milk that happened, what, 4-5 years ago? I mean, when he was signed who would have been a better replacement, all things considered? Did it actually prevent the Flames from doing anything?

Treliving does deserve some criticism, but this is hardly worth mention. I would say most GM's have made similar moves over their tenures.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Originally Posted by TOfan

I'm having a hard time seeing how Raymond's signing would have changed the trajectory of this club. Pretty inconsequential at the end of the day, I would say. No point in crying over spilled milk that happened, what, 4-5 years ago? I mean, when he was signed who would have been a better replacement, all things considered? Did it actually prevent the Flames from doing anything?

Treliving does deserve some criticism, but this is hardly worth mention. I would say most GM's have made similar moves over their tenures.

But isn't the Mason Raymond move highly indicative of the same mistakes BT made over and over in the future? It was the additive effect of these types of moves that continue to hamstring the Flames.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Yeah the series of:
Sign Raymond
Buyout Raymond
Sign Brouwer
Buyout Brower
Sign Stone
Buyout Stone
Sign Neal
Trade Neal for Lucic

There's no way you can't look at that and level some valid criticism at the GM. I think the Stone one gets overblown as he was effective until his clotting issues.

But there's a common theme where the pro scouting or analytics with the team seem flawed. With the scouting, the amateur scouting seems improved - but the pro scouting consistently has led to questionable decisions. Is it the scouts or what they are being asked to prioritize?

And then on the analytics side, has that department disagreed with the decisions and they aren't listened to? Or are they in agreement? What is being tracked and measured and has it proven to be an effective means to evaluate players?

Hard to know where the problems actually are, and ultimately the GM is accountable but if there are more root causes in play, swapping the GM won't do much.

It's also the reason why I say if you are going to fire the GM, don't hand the keys to someone on his team (e.g. Conroy) who has been a part of the group that has made the decisions that have led you to fire the GM.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by genetic_phreek

Trust the process

Pro the trustcess.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Yeah the series of:
Sign Raymond
Buyout Raymond
Sign Brouwer
Buyout Brower
Sign Stone
Buyout Stone
Sign Neal
Trade Neal for Lucic

There's no way you can't look at that and level some valid criticism at the GM. I think the Stone one gets overblown as he was effective until his clotting issues.

But there's a common theme where the pro scouting or analytics with the team seem flawed. With the scouting, the amateur scouting seems improved - but the pro scouting consistently has led to questionable decisions. Is it the scouts or what they are being asked to prioritize?

And then on the analytics side, has that department disagreed with the decisions and they aren't listened to? Or are they ignored? What is being tracked and measured and has it proven to be an effective means to evaluate players?

Hard to know where the problems actually are, and ultimately the GM is accountable but if there are more root causes in play, swapping the GM won't do much.

It's also the reason why I say if you are going to fire the GM, don't had the keys to someone on his team (e.g. Conroy) who has been a part of the group that has made the decisions that have led you to fire the GM.

The two single biggest issues the team faces stem from the failure of Bennett to pan out into a 1C and the signing of James Neal. The picks traded for Hamonic (and lesser picks) do not impact the present struggles anywhere near like those two things. To some degree Neal was mitigated but not nearly as it could have been.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The two single biggest issues the team faces stem from the failure of Bennett to pan out into a 1C and the signing of James Neal. The picks traded for Hamonic (and lesser picks) do not impact the present struggles anywhere near like those two things. To some degree Neal was mitigated but not nearly as it could have been.

I rank Hamonic is the second biggest blunder, including because the Flames didn't include any lottery protection. Even though Noah Dobson is a good player, it could have been a lot worse. It speaks to how much the club over-estimated where they were in terms of competing.

But there are two things to look at here.

Reasons why the Flames don't have a competitive team at this sage

1. The core of the team failing to take another step as anticipated
2. Sam Bennett not being a top of the line-up forward
3. Poor UFA signings
4. Shedding of picks in some bad deals (Hamonic namely)

Some of the above were out of the GM's control and some were.

So then we can look at

The mistakes the GM made
1. Overall trying to accelerate the re-build to compete sooner (which actually then drives almost all actual mistakes made, ownership likely a factor here too)
2. Signing James Neal
3. Hamonic Deal
4. Other bad UFAs
5. Shedding too many picks in some bad deals

Something like that.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Sam Bennett turning into a total bust at 4th overall has crippled a lot of what this franchise needed. It really is too bad. Did we rush him? Misuse him? Too many coaches and voices? Or is he just not that good? *Questions for another thread.

[Vinny01]

Hamonic is the biggest blunder. Not only was he a failure on the ice who dragged down Brodie and Hanifin to the point where they were trade bait but he cost the team 3 prime assets.

Do the Flames make a more impactful trade at the 19 and 20 deadlines if they had more assets? Not having that first in 2018 (Dobson) made Valimaki untouchable and not having the 2 2nds really thinned out the pool and didn’t allow them to add better assets at the deadline.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I rank Hamonic is the second biggest blunder, including because the Flames didn't include any lottery protection. Even though Noah Dobson is a good player, it could have been a lot worse. It speaks to how much the club over-estimated where they were in terms of competing.

But there are two things to look at here.

Reasons why the Flames don't have a competitive team at this sage

1. The core of the team failing to take another step as anticipated
2. Sam Bennett not being a top of the line-up forward
3. Poor UFA signings
4. Shedding of picks in some bad deals (Hamonic namely)

Some of the above were out of the GM's control and some were.

So then we can look at

The mistakes the GM made
1. Overall trying to accelerate the re-build to compete sooner (which actually then drives almost all actual mistakes made)
2. Signing James Neal
3. Hamonic Deal
4. Other bad UFAs
5. Shedding too many picks in some bad deals

Something like that.

I would add his coach hiring process to the list as well.