CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

How exactly would sharing the fieldhouse with the Stampeders compromise the amateur athletes use of the facility? Again this is just sensationalizing.

As has been said, there is little concern about sharing with the Stamps; among other concerns, the bigger issue is sharing with an arena.

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I imagine those condos don’t get a ton of revenue from connecting to the mall.

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Meh.

Someone had better build something there, and fast. NH Mall is the worst shopping complex in the city. That area needs some serious revitalization.

It's already been explained why North Hill Mall is not a stadium site, and I would add that it is not in desperate need of redevelopment (it will eventually be an attractive site for redevelopment, but it requires no catalyst). I'm just curious what in the world you're talking about in terms of condos getting revenue? They've all been sold for a decade...

I think most people would far prefer living in a condo attached to a crappy mall (with a nice Safeway no less) than many other alternatives...an events complex would be awful to live on top of.

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

The only party dumb enough to do that was the City. That deal seems so mind-numbingly stupid. There must be more to the story.

I hope some more investigative journalism comes out of this, because that deal is a hot mess.

Originally Posted by _Q_

I'm far from being a proponent of this project for many reasons, but the parking issue to me is a non-issue. If this thing gets built at West Village, someone will purchase an adjacent parcel of land and build a 6 floor parkade. If there's money to be made from parking, someone will figure out a way to make it.

While I agree this is possible, if it were such a no-brainer way to print money then why wouldn't the Flames want a piece of it? Even as an olive branch to offer split revenues...

Originally Posted by Cappy

I think if they put the Arena in/near the Stampede Grounds (which, I personally think is the only sensible spot for the arena) it would be tough selling the Fieldhouse as a communal place on the stamped grounds. For a football stadium? sure, although i doubt the Stampede wants that much infrastructure on their land. But as a fieldhouse to serve Calgarians, it seems less than ideal place to put it.

The Stampede's vision is to create a "world-class gathering space for Calgarians". At the moment, that does seem to be more focused on arts than athletics (youth campus), but I actually think there could be synergies here with Stampede's proposed BMO Centre expansion/Corral re-purpose). But that would line up more with your idea of football stadium vs. fieldhouse...the cavernous space of a stadium that is largely unused M-F could be an attractive footprint for a conference/events centre.

[powderjunkie]

I believe that a catalyst for cleaning up WV should not be necessary given the proper political willpower, but realistically I think something does need to jump start it. I absolutely hate the idea of a combined facility to do it - the benefits are all to CSEC at the expense of public good from the project IMO.

I think that the best possible catalyst for EVERYTHING would be an Olympic bid. I know a lot of people immediately scoff at the money-pit involved, but I think the extraordinary costs justify themselves in speed of development. In this case, I don't think there is a huge rush for development, but I would like to see remediation started ASAP.

The Olympics in '88 catapulted this city about two decades ahead of it's natural evolution, and I think it could help do it again. For all the moaning about Calgary's lack of a fieldhouse and lagging behind the rest of the country, we have been THE HUB for high-level athletic training in this country since 1988. Perhaps we lag a bit in some stick-and-ball sports, but we are light years ahead in nearly every other sport (and I might add that there is a reason Hockey Canada camps are held in Calgary every time).

The Olympics will suck up a few billion dollars, much directly out of our pockets (but also provincial and federal), but I'm all for it. We're approaching 30 years since last time, and continue to see the benefits (although many have diminished or disappeared, they can be easily rejuvenated).

In my fantasy world:

- I think we're looking at a 2030 bid...it might need a couple more years for the $$ spent in Vancouver to feel in the rear view mirror before there is appetite to commit again. 2026 is conceivable, but seeing how little legitimate work has been done by KK & co. I think a few more years of planning wouldn't hurt.
- New arena - Stampede Park or Railtown. Keep Saddledome for the time-being and develop plans to revamp after Olympics (a la Rexall)
- Football stadium (opening ceremonies) - Stampede Park in conjunction with major event space (see my previous post) which puts Calgary in the conversation with Nashville, Orlando, Las Vegas and Chicago as major conference hubs
- Fieldhouse could still conceivably be tied to the football stadium, but I'd rather see it follow the City's current idea of Foothills as a standalone. Doesn't really need to be tied to an Olympic bid as it isn't terribly related to winter sports. I'd rather see us embrace our 'Olympic' sport focus and incorporate some more of those elements into another expansion at Winsport. Not quite as central as Foothills, but with a completed SW ring road it may actually be better.
- West Village - Olympic Village, which would be a phase 1 of commercial/residential development for the area (with nice blank footprint to build temporary festival space. Sporting events at Stampede Park & Winsport (both very easily accessible from WV), and a city party/celebration space in WV.
- Might as well throw in LRT to the airport, or at least a dedicated BRT
- Additional benefits to the Canmore Nordic Centre (I still think Bobsled/luge/skeleton track from Nordic Centre down the hill to town and a gondola back up would be incredible. In which case you build new ski jumping facilities their too, as that event is already intrinsically linked to nordic skiing; I would think Rundle Mountain is a pretty darn good wind block)
- Lake Louise is well primed for alpine events. Slalom and Freestyle skiing at COP.


All of the problems we've been talking about get solved in a reasonable time-frame (I would still contend that there is 1 problem/need - creosote, and several wants - new arenas/stadiums/fieldhouses). It probably costs a bit more (but I think the long-term benefits of hosting would outweigh the additional costs involved) and some old, rich white dudes are still going to make more money off of this, but hopefully they are decent enough to stay in Alberta and continue to pay taxes (cheap shot - I don't fault Edwards for making a decision in his self-interest, but I think the optics are terrible and are a valid reason for the City to continue to play hardball with handouts).

That is a city I want to live in in 2031 (even if my tax bill is ugly for a while), compared to a slightly less ugly tax bill for a blight like CalgaryNext.

TLDR: I'm generally against big subsidy for these private projects, but if it's tied to Olympics, I say spend away.

[Kavvy]

A bias but relevant article

http://www.metronews.ca/views/calgar...-megaplex.html

West Village a poor choice for Calgary sports megaplex

“It didn’t make sense,” says Francisco Alaniz Uribe, an assistant professor in the University of Calgary’s faculty of environmental design, of CalgaryNEXT’s proposed West Village location.

[Jordan!]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Meh.

Someone had better build something there, and fast. NH Mall is the worst shopping complex in the city. That area needs some serious revitalization.

North Hill mall has the best Edo in Calgary though! Better than Westbrook even.

[sureLoss]

Scott Dippel @CBCScott
#yyccc to discuss report on CalgaryNext after lunch break. Calgary Flames rep (Ken King?) wants to be present and can't attend this AM.

[powderjunkie]

http://www.calgary.ca/General/Pages/...-webcasts.aspx

Livestream

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Scott Dippel @CBCScott
#yyccc to discuss report on CalgaryNext after lunch break. Calgary Flames rep (Ken King?) wants to be present and can't attend this AM.

So is KK there? Doesn't seem like it so far...what could possibly be more important for him than this meeting?

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

So is KK there? Doesn't seem like it so far...what could possibly be more important for him than this meeting?

He is there.

Gary Bobrovitz @garybtvnews
Ken King in Council Chambers listening to #CalgaryNext report by Administration @NHLFlames @GlobalCalgary

[getbak]

Who else is with him? Looks like John Bean (COO) to his right (our left). Is that Peter Hanlon (VP Communications) two to his left?

[powderjunkie]

Orange jacket dude in back corner asleep?

[getbak]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Orange jacket dude in back corner asleep?

Probably. Those seats look comfy, and City Council sessions aren't exactly non-stop action.

[powderjunkie]

Cllr. Ray Jones seemed to understand very little and asks poor questions

[Freeway]

Originally Posted by getbak

Who else is with him? Looks like John Bean (COO) to his right (our left). Is that Peter Hanlon (VP Communications) two to his left?

Bean and Hanlon are the only guys I recognize.

[powderjunkie]

I was seeing King in the reflection behind Stevens for the last few minutes, but don't see him now (other Flames dudes still there; he's probably just taking a call or something). Edit: I think he's back...can't see his head anymore; not sure if camera angle is slightly changing.

- Nenshi just said although they strongly believe polluter should pay, that shouldn't stop them from starting job and hoping for recovery later.

[Cappy]

http://flamesnation.ca/2016/4/25/wha...medium=twitter

Pretty good analysis on the problems with the proposal from the city's perspective.

[Par]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I was seeing King in the reflection behind Stevens for the last few minutes, but don't see him now (other Flames dudes still there; he's probably just taking a call or something). Edit: I think he's back...can't see his head anymore; not sure if camera angle is slightly changing.

- Nenshi just said although they strongly believe polluter should pay, that shouldn't stop them from starting job and hoping for recovery later.

Anything new come out of this city meeting?

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Cappy

http://flamesnation.ca/2016/4/25/wha...medium=twitter

Pretty good analysis on the problems with the proposal from the city's perspective.

I think it's pretty interesting read and to your point, view point likely from the city's perspective. Without getting into the taxpayer stuff ect.., I'd suggest the issues would be as follows:

1. The proposal would force the city to look to West Village re-vitalization (and the cost of clean up of that area) much sooner (likely decades) than what they are likely planning and budgeting to do. The city is firmly invested in East side development right now. This is the biggest down fall.

2. City fundamentaly wants the new arena on the East side:
a. Partially because of point 1 above (some maybe not a completely stand alone point)
b. Because they want the new arena close to Stampede grounds or tied in with the Stampede somehow.

3. The Field house concept as the Flames proposed it is yet to be determined if it will meet the city's needs for a filed house.
a. Questions on if this would be the right location for amature use based on accessability
b. Questions on if the field house can meet amature needs if being shared with pro sports teams.

I don't make the above points to critique the Flames or nescissarily compliment the city's analysis, they just are what they are. But I will say that I think it's silly to suggest the Flames didn't think this through just because the city has come back with objections. Like it or not, this is a negotiation. The Flames put their "ideal scenario" on the table first. A DT complex, that houses Flames, and indoor facility for the Stamps and other events, and gets them a piece of the Field house action, not tied to the Stampede in any way, all connected for cost savings.. I understand why they'd want that, just like I understand some of the reasons the city might not. Now the back and forth starts on what Plan B, C and D will look like, until we get a finished product.

[ricosuave]

Ugh. Tired of seeing the phrase 'world-class'...

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by ricosuave

Ugh. Tired of seeing the phrase 'world-class'...

Would you rather calgary be perpetually known as 'small town'?


A mega project like this would be a step in the right direction.

[sureLoss]

Flames will offer written response to report in July
]
Gary Bobrovitz @garybtvnews
City Council to hear written report from Flames ownership on #CalgaryNext in 3 months @GlobalCalgary #notdeadyet