[Trade] Elias Lindholm + Noah Hanifin to Flames for D. Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, & Adam Fox

[David Struch]

Remember quite a few fans here were adamant in believing Dougie wouldn't be traded, same with Ferland, they just couldn't see the Flames moving their top scoring right winger.

[Gaskal]

The more I read up about the situation and both players we got, the more I warm up to it.

I expect by season's start I'll be convinced they're the second coming of Peter Forsberg and Ryan Suter.

[rhino]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Gaudreau-Monahan- JVR/Perron
Bennett-Lindholm-Tkachuk
Jankowski-Backlund-frolik

That would be an interesting top 9.

It goes to a post I made earlier where I said maybe we should wait until the season starts to see what the team really looks like. I have a feeling Treliving will add a r/w and Lindholm slides into the 2C or 3C spot. I do like the looks of those lines. Bennett and Tkachuk on one line would drive teams crazy.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Gaudreau-Monahan- JVR/Perron
Bennett-Lindholm-Tkachuk
Jankowski-Backlund-frolik

That would be an interesting top 9.

Gaudreau Monahan Tkachuk
JVR Backlund Lindholm
Bennett Jankowski (Riley)Nash

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Top line doesn’t need a pure scorer, there is a one already on it and another guy whose scored 30 goals. They need another high IQ player that can play in both ends, that line did get hemmed in at times this year and Ferland is pretty bad in his own end. Remember what they did with Hudler? Flames added much needed skill, skill that Ferland does not have. I think this will be the first time that line has a legit top 6 player on the RW. I’m surprised others don’t see how beneficial this could be for Johnny and mony. Johnny had to do a lot of heavy lifting on that line as both Monahan and Ferland rely on Johnny to set them up, having another creative player on the top line will allow for Gaudreau to not always have to be the one creating everything.

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Any way you cut it, Lindholm/Foo/Frolik/Lazar is miles ahead of Ferland/Frolik/Brouwer/Hathaway in terms of RW depth. And yes, I think that within a year Foo will be a bigger offensive force than Frolik.

The only RW left on the market that I would take over Lindholm/Foo right now is Kessel. JVR and Neal and the like... I would pass for contract reasons and that the offensive output would only be slightly more than what Lindholm/Foo can deliver.

Lindholm/Foo/Frolik/Lazar may be somewhat ahead of Ferland/Frolik/Brouwer/Hathaway in terms of goal scoring, but if anyone looks at Lindholm/Foo/Frolik/Lazar and feels confident that they will score enough goals for Calgary to be a contender. . . . well, you're riding a wave of optimism that goes beyond any rational analysis.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Mike F

Lindholm/Foo/Frolik/Lazar may be somewhat ahead of Ferland/Frolik/Brouwer/Hathaway in terms of goal scoring, but if anyone looks at Lindholm/Foo/Frolik/Lazar
and feels confident that they will score enough goals for Calgary to be a contender. . . . well, you're riding a wave of optimism that goes beyond any rational analysis.

Both posts you quoted mention a need for more scoring.

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by rhino

Can we wait until the season begins before we say he hasn’t addressed anything?? There is tons of cap room and months before the season begins.

If Treliving adds an established 25-30 goal scorer before the season starts, it will mean he has had to send out even more assets, or has overpaid in free agency (which every team does when they sign a UFA).

There's nor reason not to judge Treliving based on the team he's put together to date and what it has cost him to do so.

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by the2bears

Both posts you quoted mention a need for more scoring.

I don't think so. . . . And even if they did, that is my big beef: Treliving has shipped out significant assets without addressing the key shortcoming of the team, scoring from the RW.

[TheoFleury]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Again if you trade him on another deal this deal doesn’t happen. He had value and it was used to acquire these players. But him being one year away from free agency impacts what he is worth in this deal or any deal
B

I think a lot of people would have rather seen Dougie dealt in a 1 for 1 deal is what a lot of this comes down to. The deal that happened has a lot of moving peices and some feel it muddied Dougie's value.

If you say, dealt Hamilton for a true 1st line FWD like a ROR or a Marner, you would still have Fox and Ferland to deal in a seperate trade, perhaps bundled with something else for a top 4 Dman. But maybe Dougie ultimately just didn't have that kind of value.

At first I was appalled by the trade, but only because it was first reported as DH for EL+NH. Then Fox and Ferland were suddenly there and I'm wondering when the draft pick from Carolina is being announced.

After a day to think about it, I think DH just didn't have the type of bananas trade value that was being proclaimed by many on this site. It was a fair trade, both gave to get. DH obviously had to go and this was the best trade out there. Not much you can do about that. At least BT didn't 'Phaneuf' this trade all to hell. That's a positive.

[Dajazz]

I'm really sceptical to the trade.

1) We need scoring - we get less scoring, net loss 10-15 goals so BT is banking on improvement
2) We gave up the best player, that's usually a loss right there
3) The value seems off to say the least, I thought/think Hamilton could/can get more
4) Why not offer a similar package for a true top forward

I get it, cost controlled, core, right age etc. Hanifin is intriguing, he can even become a Hamilton... maybe Lindholm will score 20 for the first time, matching Ferland. Sure, he's a more complete player - or is he? He's as inconsistent as they come. I'm Swedish so I wish I could be more of a homer here...

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by nik-

Right, but you said we're losing him for nothing anyway, which isn't accurate until next summer.



This situation doesn't exist, so sure it's one way to think about it, but it's not what's actually happening.

That situation right now is a possible outcome based on the current contracts

[flamesfan6]

Originally Posted by Dajazz

I'm really sceptical to the trade.

1) We need scoring - we get less scoring, net loss 10-15 goals so BT is banking on improvement
2) We gave up the best player, that's usually a loss right there
3) The value seems off to say the least, I thought/think Hamilton could/can get more
4) Why not offer a similar package for a true top forward

I get it, cost controlled, core, right age etc. Hanifin is intriguing, he can even become a Hamilton... maybe Lindholm will score 20 for the first time, matching Ferland. Sure, he's a more complete player - or is he? He's as inconsistent as they come. I'm Swedish so I wish I could be more of a homer here...

And ferland and was consistent? 9 of his goals came in 2 streaks of 5 and 4. He also had 2 goals in 2018 after the first 4 games of the year. Ferland scored 2 goals in the last 35 games of the season.
Limdholm has been consistent in his career while ferland had 2 years with somewhat decent production.

[mile]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I know some will consider this ancient history but here are Hanifin's and Lindholm's scouting reports from years back. May help some of us who haven't seen them much get an idea of their style of game and their upside. Can't seem to find as many reports on Hanifin, I either misplaced my scouting guides or I didn't buy as many that year.

HANIFIN

From Future Considerations

STRENGTHS: Hanifin is a steady, mobile two-way defenseman who loves the offensive side of the game. The one thing he showed time and time again this season and last is that he thinks the game well years beyond his age. He processes it at a very high level and possesses the skills to be able to do what he wants to do in all zones. He is very confident with the puck on his stick and loves to rush the puck himself or join in on the rush. In the defensive zone, he uses his big frame and long stick well. He always leads with his stick to deflect shots/passes off the opposition’s sticks. A gifted, smooth skating defenseman, Hanifin has a good first step and is mobile in all facets of the game. He shows his pro-ready vision and puck smarts on every shift. He plays tough in the corners and in front of the net. He is almost always in the correct position. He has an extremely long reach and uses it well to break up rushes and take away passing lanes. On the rare occasion that he makes a mistake, his calmness and poise allows him to get back in position and play like nothing happened. When his passes do get intercepted or there is a turnover he is quick to instantly apply pressure to his man and limit him from gaining any meaningful ground. His poise is also on display when he has the puck. His passing ability is very impressive; always tape-to-tape, whether the player is in motion or stationary. His shot is also incredibly hard and accurate; a real weapon on the powerplay. Has the size, speed, skill, and smarts at both ends of the ice that allows him to have success. Makes strong reads of the developing play and creates opportunity to get the puck going in the proper direction.

WEAKNESSES: While not really a weakness, it should be noted that Hanifin does not play a very physical game. He has no problem with using his strength to pin an attacker along the wall or close someone off when they try to carry the puck past him but do not look for him to lead the physical game with a big hit or by dropping the gloves. One other thing is that he can over handle the puck on the rush at times. It does not cost him in terms of turning over the puck, but it is an unnecessary risky trait that could be exploited at the NHL level.

SCOUTS QUOTE: “Hanifan is exactly what you look for in a defenseman with franchise defenseman potential. He is a complete defenseman with no glaring weakness. His skating is extremely fluid. He loves to rush the puck and his slick hands make it look like he does it with ease. He is a rock in the defensive zone. He has the potential to be the best American born defenseman in many years. I would take him at number three in June, and if he falls, he will become a pretty big steal for somebody.”

NHL POTENTIAL: Cornerstone Top Pairing Two-Way Defenseman.

From Redline's sample of their final 2015 draft guide that they posted on their website:

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Mike F

I don't think so. . . . And even if they did, that is my big beef: Treliving has shipped out significant assets without addressing the key shortcoming of the team, scoring from the RW.

Semantics then, as additional needs are mentioned. But is anyone saying their "confident that they will score enough goals for Calgary to be a contender"?

That seemed to be the beef you mentioned, but I don't think anyone actually said it.

Has Treliving improved the team? I think so. Is he done? Not sure. Do we still need more scoring? Definitely.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Mike F

I don't think so. . . . And even if they did, that is my big beef: Treliving has shipped out significant assets without addressing the key shortcoming of the team, scoring from the RW.

Hamilton was a significant asset but he returned two significant assets, maybe not scoring assets but still significant.

Ferland is a year from UFA, it's a diminishing asset.

Fox wasn't going to sign, that's a de-valued asset.

2 significant assets in, 1 significant asset out.

Two of the flames most significant assets that are still available and could be moved for a scoring winger are still available in Jankowski and Bennett. One or both could still be traded to land a top line winger if needed. Max Domi, a similar asset to Janko and Bennett landed a Galchenyuk.

The other perspective is that Jankowski or Bennett themselves could develop into a top 6 threat under Peters.

The flames have 5 legitimate top 6 forwards now and 2 who are on the cusp of joining that group. That doesn't include darkhorses like Mangiapane, Dube or Foo.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

That situation right now is a possible outcome based on the current contracts

Yes, if they did nothing, but why would they do that? Every contract is a possible UFA walk for nothing contract in the end, but how often does that happen? Why would you use that to assign benefits to this trade? It's not the situation the team was in and therefore isn't an accurate assignment of value to those players.

You're using a potential outcome as the current situation, it's not.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by nik-

Yes, if they did nothing, but why would they do that? Every contract is a possible UFA walk for nothing contract in the end, but how often does that happen? Why would you use that to assign benefits to this trade? It's not the situation the team was in and therefore isn't an accurate assignment of value to those players.

You're using a potential outcome as the current situation, it's not.

Well if the Flames want to compete for a playoff spot the Ferland spot is required to be filled post deadline. So if you believe Ferland was a key piece for next season then he was going to leave for nothing at the end of it or be signed for 3.5mil. You could us Ferland as an asset to trade and try to upgrade on Ferland. Though that's a tough trade to make without adding other pieces. So how do you value Ferland. Deadline trade to a playoff team he's worth a second. But to do that you need to replace him this year.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by nik-

Yes, if they did nothing, but why would they do that? Every contract is a possible UFA walk for nothing contract in the end, but how often does that happen? Why would you use that to assign benefits to this trade? It's not the situation the team was in and therefore isn't an accurate assignment of value to those players.

You're using a potential outcome as the current situation, it's not.

The degree to which a player is in control is absolutely a key part of this
The players the Flames acquired are under team control for longer

[CaptainCrunch]

We sold a core guy, a add on guy with one year left and a prospect that was never going to sign here for two core guys at 23 and under.



I'm good.

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by the2bears

Semantics then, as additional needs are mentioned. But is anyone saying their "confident that they will score enough goals for Calgary to be a contender"?

That seemed to be the beef you mentioned, but I don't think anyone actually said it.

Has Treliving improved the team? I think so. Is he done? Not sure. Do we still need more scoring? Definitely.

That's the problem in a nutshell! You have to believe that this was the big trade this offseason (Peters has said that they see Gio playing with Brodie and Hanifin with Hamonic, so there's no more valuable defensemen to ship out) yet it's debatable whether the team is any better* and, by your own admission, it definitely still hasn't addressed the scoring issue!

*If both Lindholm and Ferland were to play full seasons with Gaudreau and Monahan, I believe Ferland scores more goals based on their respective scouting reports and recent performance. Lindholm certainly brings more playmaking, but without also adding guys who can put the puck in the net, adding additional playmaking isn't particularly valuable. And while Lindholm has a better 200 ft. game, you can't discount the physical presence Ferland brings that Lindholm doesn't, including (importantly) the ability to drop the gloves with anyone that takes liberties with Gaudreau.

In terms of Hanifin, he certainly hasn't reached his peak, but nothing I've read convinces me that he's significantly better than Dougie defensively (I don't buy the argument that Dougie was "terrible in his own end", as many have claimed. He and Gio were the most dominant possession pair in the league last year (IIRC), and as good as Gio is, he can't cover up for a partner so much that they can put up those stats if one of them is terrible). And to whatever degree Hanifin is better defensively, it's likely offset by Dougie's superior offense.

Yes, the Flames have gained some longer term asset certainty (with Ferland soon to be a UFA), and maybe relieved themselves of some off-ice incompatibility in Dougie, so you can add points in the Flames favour from an organizational perspective. But no one has claimed that those issues were affecting the on-ice performance, so addressing them won't necessarily make the on-ice product better.