Hockey Canada, CHL settle lawsuit over alleged sexual assault involving WJ players

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by blankall

We don't actually know what was on the video. The act could have appeared consensual from the video. I highly doubt the player was showing a video of a girl crying or begging for help. In which case the coach was telling his players not to spread a video around of them engaging in a sexual act, which was good advice, and also acts to maintain the girl's dignity.

Yes, if it was thought to be consensual the mens rea is not there for the employee. But even if it's murky, deleting is bad and destruction of evidence. Not showing is good. Because even showing it is potentially a crime and at the very least a tort.

BTW, even the secret videoing was illegal and if it was apparent that the victim wasn't aware of it (which she wasn't), it's evidence of that crime as well.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by InternationalVillager

Yeah - I don't understand why this is so hard for some to comprehend.

It's very easy to play Monday Morning QB and dissect these situations to the nth degree.

Actually the more I think about, the coach likely didn't see the video at all. If I was a coach, I would definitely not look at the video. If I saw a player distributing a sex tape of his own, the obvious advice is to tell him to delete it and stop showing it around. I also know several guys who've made sex tapes, I wouldn't automatically presume there was rape involved.

To hold the coach accountable, you have to presume he saw the video and the video showed signs of an assault. Otherwise, it's just a coach telling his players to act like descent human beings.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by InternationalVillager

Yeah - I don't understand why this is so hard for some to comprehend.

It's very easy to play Monday Morning QB and dissect these situations to the nth degree.

Unless you're knowingly acting in an illegal manner, you're just trying to give the best advice that you can possible in that moment based on what your life experiences are. end of story. to say that the best decision wasn't made after spending time analyzing it, it's irrelevant. you weren't there. you don't know what you would have done.

Oh, I know exactly what I would have done.

You should never get rid of anything that could be evidence of something, even a non-criminal matter.

At best this employee knew it was wrong to share the video with people. Sharing the video (even if the sex was consensual) is itself illegal. So deleting the evidence of a video that was shared is also not proper.

[InternationalVillager]

Originally Posted by blankall

Actually the more I think about, the coach likely didn't see the video at all. If I was a coach, I would definitely not look at the video. If I saw a player distributing a sex tape of his own, the obvious advice is to tell him to delete it and stop showing it around. I also know several guys who've made sex tapes, I wouldn't automatically presume there was rape involved.

To hold the coach accountable, you have to presume he saw the video and the video showed signs of an assault. Otherwise, it's just a coach telling his players to act like descent human beings.

Agree.

I have personally been in situations where some guys are huddled around at a party or something watching a tape. No one thinks their friend went and raped a girl and made a tape which he is now showing off to a group of people. That just doesn't cross your mind - atleast I think my friends wouldn't do that.

I don't think people (mainly teenagers/young adults) realize that it's illegal to show that ####. there needs to be better awareness/education in order to make good decisions in life. It's not harmless. It's a horrible thing to do to someone.

[InternationalVillager]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Oh, I know exactly what I would have done.

You should never get rid of anything that could be evidence of something, even a non-criminal matter.

At best this employee knew it was wrong to share the video with people. Sharing the video (even if the sex was consensual) is itself illegal. So deleting the evidence of a video that was shared is also not proper.

I bet you a lot of people don't even realize that + Are you a lawyer or a fan of crime tv? I know for a fact an average person doesn't think about things the way you're typing it out.

This to me is the equivalent of an Adult discipling a kid by saying "Hey knock it off - you shouldn't be doing that".

[blankall]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Yes, if it was thought to be consensual the mens rea is not there for the employee. But even if it's murky, deleting is bad and destruction of evidence. Not showing is good. Because even showing it is potentially a crime and at the very least a tort.

BTW, even the secret videoing was illegal and if it was apparent that the victim wasn't aware of it (which she wasn't), it's evidence of that crime as well.

The coach isn't being charged. If he doesn't tell the kid to delete the video, the presumption would be that he'll just show the video to other people when the coach isn't around. Telling a teenager to delete their, presumably non-rape involved, sex tape is just good advice, it's not hiding evidence, as it prevents the tape from ever being shown again.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by blankall

The coach isn't being charged. If he doesn't tell the kid to delete the video, the presumption would be that he'll just show the video to other people when the coach isn't around. Telling a teenager to delete their, presumably non-rape involved, sex tape is just good advice, it's not hiding evidence, as it prevents the tape from ever being shown again.

It's really not. You are describing spoliation of evidence. The sex tape being shared is in itself illegal. Unless you somehow thing the other party authorized it being shared. Which is wilful blindness IMO.

You don't have to tell someone to delete a video in order to tell them not to share it any more. Just tell them it's a crime to share it. Or take their phone. Or move the file. Don't destroy the evidence.

Plus, if there was a true consent issue and the video was destroyed you've now lost exculpatory evidence.

[InternationalVillager]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It's really not. You are describing spoliation of evidence. The sex tape being shared is in itself illegal. Unless you somehow thing the other party authorized it being shared. Which is wilful blindness IMO.

You don't have to tell someone to delete a video in order to tell them not to share it any more. Just tell them it's a crime to share it. Or take their phone. Or move the file. Don't destroy the evidence.

Plus, if there was a true consent issue and the video was destroyed you've now lost exculpatory evidence.

You didn't answer the question though. Are you a lawyer?

"Spoliation?"
"Exculpatory evidence?"

I understand what you're saying but what you're describing is not the real world with the average person.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It's really not. You are describing spoliation of evidence. The sex tape being shared is in itself illegal. Unless you somehow thing the other party authorized it being shared. Which is wilful blindness IMO.

You don't have to tell someone to delete a video in order to tell them not to share it any more. Just tell them it's a crime to share it. Or take their phone. Or move the file. Don't destroy the evidence.

Plus, if there was a true consent issue and the video was destroyed you've now lost exculpatory evidence.

Disagree. Showing a video isn't a crime in itself, unless you know that there are parties in the video who did not agree to have it shared. 2 consenting adults can agree to make a tape and not put restrictions on others viewing it.

Also stopping further spread of the video is likely the biggest issue.

I don't think anyone would ever be charged after telling a young man to delete their sex video, unless they knew it had evidence of an assault on it.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by blankall

Actually the more I think about, the coach likely didn't see the video at all. If I was a coach, I would definitely not look at the video. If I saw a player distributing a sex tape of his own, the obvious advice is to tell him to delete it and stop showing it around. I also know several guys who've made sex tapes, I wouldn't automatically presume there was rape involved.

To hold the coach accountable, you have to presume he saw the video and the video showed signs of an assault. Otherwise, it's just a coach telling his players to act like descent human beings.

The article says that the coach watched the video so one can probably safely assume the coach watched the video.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by blankall

Disagree. Showing a video isn't a crime in itself, unless you know that there are parties in the video who did not agree to have it shared. 2 consenting adults can agree to make a tape and not put restrictions on others viewing it.

Also stopping further spread of the video is likely the biggest issue.

I don't think anyone would ever be charged after telling a young man to delete their sex video, unless they knew it had evidence of an assault on it.

The issue of whether a prosecutor would exercise their prosecutorial discretion is completely separate from whether the act was illegal. Why would deleting it from their phone delete the video anyway? They could have already uploaded it to the cloud or any other various means of keeping the video. The obvious thing to do would be to tell the individual to quit showing the video because you would have no guarantee that the video was completely deleted (unless you are some sort of tech expert).

I cannot even imagine a situation where I, as a current 44 year old male, would have a 18 year old show me a video of a one person (that I knew) taping another 18 year old (that I knew) having sex with an unknown third party and thinking “this is probably legal”.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

The article says that the coach watched the video so one can probably safely assume the coach watched the video.

At one point Daigle left the hotel room and Siciliano continued to assault her. Later, she started crying and sought refuge in the bathroom. Meanwhile, Daigle had gone downstairs and was showing video of the assault to teammates and a coach in a conference room where the party was still going on.

A team employee learned of the video and intervened, making Daigle delete it. The victim only learned of the video's existence the following day.

The employee who intervened, and had the video deleted, was a different person from the coach who watched it. We were using the word "coach" to describe the employee who had the video deleted, and that's probably not correct.

However, that is absolutely messed up that a coach would watch a video of teenage player having sex. Really speaks to the source of a lot of the awful behaviour and attitudes in sports.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by blankall

The employee who intervened, and had the video deleted, was a different person from the coach who watched it. We were using the word "coach" to describe the employee who had the video deleted, and that's probably not correct.

However, that is absolutely messed up that a coach would watch a video of teenage player having sex. Really speaks to the source of a lot of the awful behaviour and attitudes in sports.

Yes, a layperson probably does not know it is destroying evidence when it gives that advice. The coach even watching or the idea that the player thought it was socially appropriate to show the video around (putting aside the actual sexual assault) is what is seriously disturbing. I think GioforPM’s point is just that it is destroying evidence and that it is not a huge stretch to understand why.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It's really not. You are describing spoliation of evidence. The sex tape being shared is in itself illegal. Unless you somehow thing the other party authorized it being shared. Which is wilful blindness IMO.

You don't have to tell someone to delete a video in order to tell them not to share it any more. Just tell them it's a crime to share it. Or take their phone. Or move the file. Don't destroy the evidence.

Plus, if there was a true consent issue and the video was destroyed you've now lost exculpatory evidence.

“Delete that ####” is my boilerplate recommendation for any sexual videos or photos that reside on anyone’s phone.

And unless I was going to confiscate that young man’s phone and call the police in that moment, I don’t think that advice would change.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

“Delete that ####” is my boilerplate recommendation for any sexual videos or photos that reside on anyone’s phone.

And unless I was going to confiscate that young man’s phone and call the police in that moment, I don’t think that advice would change.

And I'm telling you if you suspect it was shown to others without consent of the other party, you are now advising destruction of evidence of a crime.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by blankall

Disagree. Showing a video isn't a crime in itself, unless you know that there are parties in the video who did not agree to have it shared. 2 consenting adults can agree to make a tape and not put restrictions on others viewing it.

Also stopping further spread of the video is likely the biggest issue.

I don't think anyone would ever be charged after telling a young man to delete their sex video, unless they knew it had evidence of an assault on it.

You don't have to "know" anything, and assault isn't even necessary. It is illegal to share videos of consensual sex unless both parties agree.Common sense runs against there being some sort of full consent, especially in this circumstance, where Daigle has run down from the room and said "look what just happened".

People might not get charged if they advised out of ignorance, because prosecutors don't charge everyone with everything possible. But if this girl had sued, she could also sue the people who advised to delete evidence.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by InternationalVillager

You didn't answer the question though. Are you a lawyer?

"Spoliation?"
"Exculpatory evidence?"

I understand what you're saying but what you're describing is not the real world with the average person.

Yes.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

And I'm telling you if you suspect it was shown to others without consent of the other party, you are now advising destruction of evidence of a crime.

What if you don't suspect that?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

What if you don't suspect that?

Then you are naiive and/or wilfully blind. You really think it would make sense here?

Wouldn't your first question be "does she know you are showing this to people?"

EDIT:

I think there was no charge because (a) the person was probably trying to act properly in their own mind, (b) there was no harm done - the video was not deleted or it was recovered.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Then you are naiive and/or wilfully blind. You really think it would make sense here?

Wouldn't your first question be "does she know you are showing this to people?"

Being naive isn’t a crime.

“I thought it was a consensual encounter, I didn’t go through my player’s sex tape with a magnifying glass, i told him to delete the video because his decision to immediately show it to other people indicated he wasn’t mature enough to be in possession of that video, and for his sake and the girl’s I said “delete that”.”

Arrest me.