[News] Calgary, Alberta, & CSEC agree in principle to $1.223bn Event Centre + infrastructure

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

but otherwise, they almost invariably include tax breaks, free land, promotional rights, and/or other incentives.

Wouldn't it have been nice to not be boned so hard though?

[nik-]

What an embarrassing deal lol. CSEC also gets the +200 mil team value basically instantly.

[Finger Cookin]

Weird that that chart is counting every cost for bother levels of government twice. Without even factoring the 1% addition per year, $17M for 35 years adds up to $595M. $1.5M for 35 years is another $22.5M, again without factoring in the 1% annual increase. Neither of those figures seem to add up to the $381M on the chart.

There's probably a point to be made with the numbers, but it's kind of muddied in whatever that chart presentation is attempting to achieve.

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

It's from former councillor and current walking enthusiast Jeromy Farkas; here's the thread on reddit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Calgary/com...costs_for_100/

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Corporate welfare happens all the time. The amount of tax breaks and benefits given to attract and retain business is something people just aren't aware of, and those numbers can be staggering. You don't get head offices to relocate to your city without throwing them an extremely lucrative bone. My god, if the usual pearl clutchers had been around to see what the CoC did to bring CP Rail to town back in '96 it would have been mayhem. You have to make it worth the interest's while to come here and then keep them happy. That comes through tax breaks and subsidies to get things done, like build infrastructure and lease over-priced office space in the glass towers of the downtown core.

Yes these deals happen frequently. Why not look at merits of each situation? This is not a typical head office situation, as NHL teams are the most inefficient employers imaginable. A few extremely high paying employees who spend their money elsewhere.

This is about the intangible benefits of having a pro hockey team. It’s a shame the deal is so one sided compared to most others but Edwards was in a great position given who was across the table. Still, it will be great not having to talk about the team leaving so hoping they just put this to bed and get it done.

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

It's from former councillor and current walking enthusiast Jeromy Farkas; here's the thread on reddit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Calgary/com...costs_for_100/

He can add making misleading or just unintentionally bad charts to his resume.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Yes these deals happen frequently. Why not look at merits of each situation? This is not a typical head office situation, as NHL teams are the most inefficient employers imaginable. A few extremely high paying employees who spend their money elsewhere.

This is about the intangible benefits of having a pro hockey team. It’s a shame the deal is so one sided compared to most others but Edwards was in a great position given who was across the table. Still, it will be great not having to talk about the team leaving so hoping they just put this to bed and get it done.

Your not wrong but how many employees does CSEC have?

Im guessing its north of 300.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by nik-

What an embarrassing deal lol. CSEC also gets the +200 mil team value basically instantly.

You’re complaining that the value of the team will increase because of this? What did you expect? If you want to live in a place with no NHL team, Lethbridge is 2 hours south.

15 out of 15 councillors voted in favour. What do you know that they don’t?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Yes these deals happen frequently. Why not look at merits of each situation? This is not a typical head office situation, as NHL teams are the most inefficient employers imaginable. A few extremely high paying employees who spend their money elsewhere.

This is about the intangible benefits of having a pro hockey team. It’s a shame the deal is so one sided compared to most others but Edwards was in a great position given who was across the table. Still, it will be great not having to talk about the team leaving so hoping they just put this to bed and get it done.

Yes, but primarily, and much more significantly, it is about the benefits of having an events centre, and a revitalized east village. The city isn't buying a pro sports team, they are buying/building an events centre.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by nik-

What an embarrassing deal lol. CSEC also gets the +200 mil team value basically instantly.

Other than personal angst, how does this affect you, or taxpayers in general?

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Other than personal angst, how does this affect you, or taxpayers in general?

Our tax money helping increase the net worth of a billionaire who changed his residency to avoid paying taxes.

It's a crappy deal.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Yes these deals happen frequently. Why not look at merits of each situation? This is not a typical head office situation, as NHL teams are the most inefficient employers imaginable. A few extremely high paying employees who spend their money elsewhere.

This is about the intangible benefits of having a pro hockey team. It’s a shame the deal is so one sided compared to most others but Edwards was in a great position given who was across the table. Still, it will be great not having to talk about the team leaving so hoping they just put this to bed and get it done.

Is there anything in the deal that prevents the team from leaving in 20 years and just paying out the lease for each of the final 15 years and trying to make money off the concerts and other events?

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Other than personal angst, how does this affect you, or taxpayers in general?

It doesn’t.
But it sure gives him something else to add to his lengthy list to bitch about…

[CroCop]

This was great news. Nice things cost money and it’s needed. Build it and don’t worry about it, only costs more if you wait.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Is it? Or is this just the one that people are actually aware of, because it is completely public in detail. Lanny_MacDonald is right, this is how things get done. And for the people saying some arenas have been built with no public money, there may be a few in the very largest cities, but otherwise, they almost invariably include tax breaks, free land, promotional rights, and/or other incentives.

“This is just the way it had to be” is not a valid response to whether this way is particularly silly or not. Neither is “well other bad deals have had similar agreements/structures” a valid defence of this deal.

Nobody needs to be walked through the reality of major league arena dealing when we’re saying that reality is silly. That’s the kind of thing I expect from Lanny who pretends to be an expert about every single subject from aliens to city deal making, but you’re usually fair enough to start with the assumption that people criticizing this know how arenas work, at least. Right?

Unless you’re saying you’d do this deal 10/10 times without the Flames as the tenant (insert some random event company that does 41 dog shows a year or whatever)?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

“This is just the way it had to be” is not a valid response to whether this way is particularly silly or not. Neither is “well other bad deals have had similar agreements/structures” a valid defence of this deal.

Nobody needs to be walked through the reality of major league arena dealing when we’re saying that reality is silly. That’s the kind of thing I expect from Lanny who pretends to be an expert about every single subject from aliens to city deal making, but you’re usually fair enough to start with the assumption that people criticizing this know how arenas work, at least. Right?

Unless you’re saying you’d do this deal 10/10 times without the Flames as the tenant (insert some random event company that does 41 dog shows a year or whatever)?

I didn't say either of those things.

A lot of people that are against this deal are the same people that have made it clear, over and over, that they are against ANY deal. Most of the complaints are the same complaints we would hear, regardless of the details of the deal, as long as there was even a single dollar of public money involved. And a lot of people are trying to argue that the deal is paying for an NHL team, or has no benefit to the city - ridiculous. The public money is going to the development of the east village, to building an event centre for the city, and to upgrading the infrastructure in the area.

As for you, you have been banging that same, "where's the benefit" drum. And implying that hospitals aren't going to get built as a result. I am pretty sure that you are more reasonable than those comments would suggest.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Yes these deals happen frequently. Why not look at merits of each situation? This is not a typical head office situation, as NHL teams are the most inefficient employers imaginable. A few extremely high paying employees who spend their money elsewhere.

This is about the intangible benefits of having a pro hockey team. It’s a shame the deal is so one sided compared to most others but Edwards was in a great position given who was across the table. Still, it will be great not having to talk about the team leaving so hoping they just put this to bed and get it done.

Spend their money elsewhere? Strange, I thought the Flames and their families spend more than half the year in Calgary. What about the alumni or even the players who spend time here during the offseason? Doesn’t Koenekny spend time here? It didn’t really occur to me the other day when I crossed paths with Mikael Backlund, his wife and his daughter at my kid’s daycare that he must be getting free service there.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Everyone knows corporate welfare happens all the time, the issue is that this specific instance of corporate welfare is especially silly.

What would the terms of the worst possible acceptable deal have been to you?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I didn't say either of those things.

A lot of people that are against this deal are the same people that have made it clear, over and over, that they are against ANY deal. Most of the complaints are the same complaints we would hear, regardless of the details of the deal, as long as there was even a single dollar of public money involved. And a lot of people are trying to argue that the deal is paying for an NHL team, or has no benefit to the city - ridiculous. The public money is going to the development of the east village, to building an event centre for the city, and to upgrading the infrastructure in the area.

As for you, you have been banging that same, "where's the benefit" drum. And implying that hospitals aren't going to get built as a result. I am pretty sure that you are more reasonable than those comments would suggest.

To the first bolded, it is. In what world do you believe it isn’t? None of the benefits (job opportunities, rivers district, even a place to hold major events/concerts/etc) are exclusive to having an NHL team involved, but giving them all the revenue from every event including events not-related to the NHL, AHL, or WHL seems pretty much like buying an NHL team, no?

To the second bolded, do you believe money is infinite? Did they announce an expansion to the Children’s Hospital with more free money at the same time and I just missed it? No, right?

It’s not that hospitals won’t get built, it’s that we had much more pressing needs than an arena that weren’t addressed, and instead of using all this “free money” to pay for that, we’ll all pay for it instead. I know not everyone is the best at budgeting, but using your savings on a new car when your roof is caving in and then justifying it by saying “hey, I already had money saved for the car” while you start saving to pay for the roof is just… I don’t know, bad? It’s being bad with money.

You can dress this deal up however you want but nobody can sit there and honestly say it was in the top five priorities nor a good deal. It’s just a typical silly arena deal that moves money going to one place to a new place. Woohoo.

[Enoch Root]

I am not going to get into a long, drawn-out debate with you, as you have shown an incredible will towards endless debate, and have no desire to move your position in the slightest. But I will respond to one comment...

As I said, you have been among the guilty in posting some pretty extreme and unreasonable views on this. I get that you're passionate about it. But I also know that you're not one of the people on here that would normally make a comment like "do you believe money is infinite? Did they announce an expansion to the Children’s Hospital with more free money at the same time and I just missed it? No, right?" I know that you would jump down someone else's throat if they made a comment like that to you. And I know that you are fully aware how ridiculous it is. Of course money isn't infinite. But some money does get spent on things other than health care. And infrastructure is one of them.