Hamas did indeed instruct people not to listen to the "psychological warfare" from Israel, and that they believed the fighting would be short lives and people were at greater risk on the move than they were in their own homes.
It was part of their plan to utilise human shields, not thinking Israel would (or daring them to) fire on civilian homes.
That said, IDF has used human shields fairly recently, and was pretty insistent on their right to use them as effective means, so even the whole morality of human shields doesn't necessarily weigh in Israel's favour.
Firstly, it's incorrect to claim Hamas started the current war. It was escalation between the two, and to lay blame on one party is indicative of bias. Neither are innocent in the beginning of this war.
Another thing about the kidnapping and murder of the three teens that started this whole war, while you can be as pragmatic and look at it being no one sides "fault". Even if you deny that Hamas, or a faction thereof, was responsible for the current outbreak in violence. You cannot deny that only one side is crazy enough to openly celebrate the deaths of the teens AND the deaths of the kidnappers at Israeli hands after.
Hamas is a death cult that needs to be stamped out of existence for the sake all the remaining innocents in the region.
Hamas did indeed instruct people not to listen to the "psychological warfare" from Israel, and that they believed the fighting would be short lives and people were at greater risk on the move than they were in their own homes.
It was part of their plan to utilise human shields, not thinking Israel would (or daring them to) fire on civilian homes.
That said, IDF has used human shields fairly recently, and was pretty insistent on their right to use them as effective means, so even the whole morality of human shields doesn't necessarily weigh in Israel's favour.
Wow that's a real nice way of spinning it. I really doubt Hamas even considered the length of the war as their overall policy has always been to maximize death to gain international condemnation of Israel and Israeli policies. It is written into their "constitution" as it were. They did definitely dared Israel to hit civilian homes when they started putting weapons in them.
The big difference here between Hamas and Israel is Israeli courts ordered the IDF to stop using human shield tactics over 3 years ago. Although the IDF appealed, it has since stopped doing it. In the context of the current conflict, this is a moral non-issue on the Israeli side.
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In response, the IDF said that it had forbidden the use of Palestinians as human shields against attacks or as hostages, but did not rule out their use "in situations in which this aid would enable [the army] to refrain from military activity that could cause even greater damage to local residents, to soldiers and to property."
Wow that's a real nice way of spinning it. Not at any point did Hamas even consider the length of the war as their overall policy has always been to maximize death to gain international condemnation of Israel and Israeli policies. It is written into their "constitution" as it were. They did definitely dare Israel to hit civilian homes when they started putting weapons in them.
The difference is big here, Israeli courts ordered the IDF to stop using human shield tactics over 3 years ago, although they appealed, the IDF has since stopped doing it. In the context of the current conflict, this is a moral non-issue on the Israeli side.
Spin?
That's exactly what they said...
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“The IDF’s campaign is to be short and temporary,” the messages said. “Those who fail to comply with the instructions will endanger their lives and the lives of their families. Beware.”
So no, that isn't spin, that's a quote, which is what I directly referenced when I summarised Hamas' message to civilians.
As for human shields, again, the only reason IDF doesn't currently use them is because the courts disallowed it. So to claim it's some moral travesty when Hamas uses them is devoid of any credibility, and I quote:
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Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz is prepared to make a personal appearance in court to defend the practice, ministry officials added ... The Israeli military believes that the use of Palestinian civilians can often defuse a tense situation.
Have they since moved on from it? Absolutely, as the military was forced to, but that doesn't make their use and support of it any less relevant. You cannot logically condemn Hamas' use of human shields while painting Israel as some guiltless entity. Hamas doesn't hasn't used suicide bombers for about the same amount of time, but that seems to be fair game to bring up. Why hide anything on either side?
So no, that isn't spin, that's a quote, which is what I directly referenced when I summarised Hamas' message to civilians.
Public statement meant to convince their public to do as they are told, have they issue any retraction of this since the war has become far more prolonged? If they truly had their public's welfare in mind they would have issued a retraction... this leads me to believe again they are just spinning.
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Originally Posted by Chill Cosby
As for human shields, again, the only reason IDF doesn't currently use them is because the courts disallowed it. So to claim it's some moral travesty when Hamas uses them is devoid of any credibility, and I quote:
Have they since moved on from it? Absolutely, as the military was forced to, but that doesn't make their use and support of it any less relevant. You cannot logically condemn Hamas' use of human shields while painting Israel as some guiltless entity. Hamas doesn't hasn't used suicide bombers for about the same amount of time, but that seems to be fair game to bring up. Why hide anything on either side?
I can logically condemn Hama's use of human shield because of the governing rules around it's existence. Israel's constitution enshrines basic rules and checks to self correct, as ineffective as it may seem sometimes, problems such as the use of human shields by it's military institutions. Does Hamas have the same checks, courts or basic rules written in their constitution? Quite the opposite actually. Again, I did not paint Israel as any guiltless entity, far from it, but you have to admit that at least they still at least hope for peace and at least try to correct the wrongs of their military whereas Hamas....
As for suicide bombers, that was more a result of the wall going up and check points making them suicide bombings an ineffective tool rather than Hamas purposely stopping their use. While you bring that up, a suicide bomber was just used in the cease fire breaking tunnel attack that led to the capture of the IDF soldier.
Public statement meant to convince their public to do as they are told, have they issue any retraction of this since the war has become far more prolonged? If they truly had their public's welfare in mind they would have issued a retraction... this leads me to believe again they are just spinning.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. It was the very same statement that came suggesting people were in danger if they left their home and that Israel was simply attempting psychological warfare. Is the whole thing spin? Yeah, maybe. Maybe they really believed it. We can't know. Does it make it any less or more stupid? No. I have to ask, what point are you making?
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Originally Posted by FlameOn
I can logically condemn Hama's use of human shield because of the governing rules around it's existence. Israel's constitution enshrines basic rules and checks to self correct, as ineffective as it may seem sometimes, problems such as the use of human shields by it's military institutions. Does Hamas have the same checks, courts or basic rules written in their constitution? Quite the opposite actually. Again, I did not paint Israel as any guiltless entity, far from it, but you have to admit that at least they still at least hope for peace and at least try to correct the wrongs of their military whereas Hamas....
As for suicide bombers, that was more a result of the wall going up and check points making them suicide bombings an ineffective tool rather than Hamas purposely stopping their use. While you bring that up, a suicide bomber was just used in the cease fire breaking tunnel attack that led to the capture of the IDF soldier.
No, Hamas does not have the same checks and balances, because they're a terrorist organisation, not a stable government.
Israel hopes for peace in the very same way that Hamas hopes for it: through victory. They both hope for peace, not because they expect they can live amongst the other, but they hope for the elimination of the other. Hamas wants the occupation to end in order for peace, something that will never happen. Israel wants Hamas to disarm and surrender for peace, something that will never happen. If two sides are hoping for peace on impossible terms, that's not really hoping for peace at all.
I feel like I'm repeating myself here, could you go back through the thread? The "Hamas didn't stop suicide bombings by choice" isn't true:
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Hamas is to abandon its use of suicide bombers, who have killed almost 300 Israel
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'The suicide bombings happened in an exceptional period and they have now stopped,' he said. 'They came to an end as a change of belief.'
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Khaled Hroub, director of the Cambridge Arab Media Project and the author of Hamas: Political Thought and Practice, said that even among members of Hamas, suicide bombing was controversial.
The wall certainly did help curb suicide bombings, as there are plenty of militants outside of Hamas control, but Hamas officially ended the use of them long ago. I hadn't heard about the most recent suicide bomb though, have a link? It would be the first one since the early 2000's.
The barrier, which violates international law and it's extension into the West Bank unsupported by even the US and Canada, two of it's strongest allies.
I guess I just don't understand why people have to stretch the truth to demonise Hamas. They're a terrorist organisation, there is plenty of real, attainable information in which they can be condemned by. There is no need to change the brutal reality that is already there. It's ok to admit they've done good things, or had positive interactions while noting the real crimes they've committed. There is nothing wrong with the truth.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. It was the very same statement that came suggesting people were in danger if they left their home and that Israel was simply attempting psychological warfare. Is the whole thing spin? Yeah, maybe. Maybe they really believed it. We can't know. Does it make it any less or more stupid? No. I have to ask, what point are you making?
That's the point I was making to begin with, the whole "oh it's only temporary so stay indoors" is far more likely spin by Hamas to keep people indoors to maximize casualties rather than concern for the well-being of it's citizens. I was not implying you did any spinning.
As for use of suicide bombers. Since Hamas has shown willingness to use suicide bombers again at their convenience, it would make null any claims that Hamas has made about their discontinued use.
IDF issues statement regarding attack on IDF soldier, and cousin to the current Israeli defense minister, Lt Hadar Goldin
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"Out of a tunnel access point or several, terrorists came out of the ground. At least one was a suicide terrorist who detonated himself. There was an exchange of fire," said Lieutenant-Colonel Peter Lerner, a military spokesman.
Hamas spokesperson saying they have lost contact with the team responsible for the capture of the IDF soldier, by Israeli artillery fire, which they ironically restarted by breaking the cease-fire
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Hamas Military Wing issues a statement saying that they believe that the missing Israeli officer was killed in an Israeli bombardment. "We lost contact with the group of combatants that took part in the ambush, and we believe they were all killed in the bombardment. Assuming that they managed to abduct the soldier during combat, we assess that he was also killed in the incident."
Just how is Israel hoping for the elimination of Palestine itself? At one point they were almost willing for a separate state, as you put it, living among each other. It's Hama's by constant refusal to compromise on even the most basic things, like a cease fire, that the conflict as of now continues. Israel only wishes for the destruction of Hamas and not of the Palestinian people themselves, whereas the opposite cannot be held true.
Gandhi and the Indians realized laying down their arms is preferable to armed resistance when fighting failed miserably against the British, so they instead practiced peaceful protest and internal pressure British pressure eventually forced change. The Palestinian people need to realize that only by laying down their arms can true peace and negotiation start. They have to do this by fighting back against Hamas. Unfortunately, Hamas is brainwashing them and Hamas, being the death cult that it is, will not realistically allow for any peace (since all Hamas does in peace is re-arm their rockets and rebuild their tunnels). They've already making huge examples of the Palestinians who pushed for this solution including some public lynchings. One side wants peace by disarmament, by definition a perquisite for peace and the other would rather personally kill their own people rather than allow some of them to sue for such a solution. How is it wrong to demonize, by your own words, a terrorist organization and how is this in any way stretching the truth?
How is it wrong to demonize, by your own words, a terrorist organization and how is this in any way stretching the truth?
Because when you make unfounded claims and claims that (as proven by several links) are the opposite of the truth, even about Hamas, you do damage to the reality of the situation and lose credibility in terms of the discussion.
From your post, I get a good sense of some very pro-Israel leanings. That's fine, but with all due respect, I've found it a bit useless to go around in circles with those carrying a fair about of bias with them on either side, so I'll leave you to your opinion and agree to disagree!
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Because when you make unfounded claims and claims that (as proven by several links) are the opposite of the truth, even about Hamas, you do damage to the reality of the situation and lose credibility in terms of the discussion.
From your post, I get a good sense of some very pro-Israel leanings. That's fine, but with all due respect, I've found it a bit useless to go around in circles with those carrying a fair about of bias with them on either side, so I'll leave you to your opinion and agree to disagree!
On the contrary every claim I have made has been backed up by fact and associated proof. The only claim you seemed to have problems with is the official discontinued use of suicide bombings by Hamas, to which I'm saying their current use renders such claims (and past associated links that are considered invalid at this point) insubstantial. How is this claim at all false or out of line with anything 'credible'?
I'm basing a lot of things on plain fact of action, videos of events including, if you want, a very gory and public execution by Hamas of peaceful Palestinian protesters for being collaborators. Do not mistake this for any bias. The wall around the Gaza strip is wrong as well. I actually don't like Israel as a state, and I'm not pro-Israeli at all. I'm fricking Chinese for crying out loud and don't really have a horse in this race so to speak. I'm am just looking as a third party and set out to look at as many non-partial links i.e. non-American, i.e. non-Israeli as possible and I want the violence to first stop before we address any other issue at hand. The entire linchpin of the continued violence is Hamas perpetuation and Israeli overreaction. One has to give and from the information available one side is far far more willing to head towards mediation and the negotiating table than the other.
Anybody have a link other than the IDF saying that Hamas is telling civilians to stay after warnings? I just don't buy that. Sounds like a made up rumour and it has taken off by pro-Israel folks defending Israel after one of their cowardly attacks on civilians.
Not to mention that these people have nowhere to go. Maybe someone will be kind enough to point out on a map where the 'safe' area of Gaza is.
Violence is ugly, but this post goes back 11 years.
In the last 3 weeks, more than 1300 palestinians have been killed.
More than the amount of Israeli's killed in the last 15 years.
In 3 weeks.
The problem with these totals is that it's not like the Palestinians aren't trying. If the Israelis weren't so good at defending their populace the numbers would be similar. It's not like the Israelis become the boogeyman just because they're winning. Do you think a role reversal would be any different? If anything with Hamas behind the wheel it would be worse - see ISIS in Syria for example.
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You can be Jewish and anti-Israel. There are many anti-Israeli Jews, and they are allowed to speak freely about their beliefs.
Edit: I do agree with you though, that you can be anti-Israel policy without being anti-Israel.
Agreed. The opinions of citizens and politicians within Israel are as varied as anywhere else in the world. There is no "Jewish" or "Israeli" opinion on these subjects. That is why it is ridiculous when people post articles or sound bytes from Jews or Israelis that are supposed to be representative somehow. Just look at how many parties they have in that country to see how diverse the opinions are.
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"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
It had been a mistake for Israel to withdraw from Gaza, he added — reminding us that he’d opposed the 2005 disengagement — because Hamas had since established a terrorist bunker in the Strip. And what Hamas had been doing in Gaza — tunneling into and rocketing at the enemy — would be replicated in the West Bank were Israel so foolish as to give the Islamists the opportunity.
“If we were to pull out of Judea and Samaria, like they tell us to,” he said bitterly — leaving it to us to fill in who the many and various foolish “theys” are — “there’d be a possibility of thousands of tunnels” being dug by terrorists to attack Israel, he said. There were 1,200 tunnels dug in the 14-kilometer border strip between Egypt and Gaza alone, he almost wailed, which Egypt had sealed. “At present we have a problem with the territory called Gaza,” the prime minister said. But the West Bank is 20 times the size of Gaza. Israel, he said flatly, was not prepared “to create another 20 Gazas” in the West Bank.
Beyond Israel’s direct current confrontation with Hamas, and the eternal Palestinian conflict, Netanyahu also addressed the rise of Islamic extremism across the Middle East — covering the incapacity of affected states to resist it, and Israel’s unique determination and capacity to stand firm. He said Israel finds itself in a region “that is being seized by Islamic extremism. It is bringing down countries, many countries. It is knocking on our door, in the north and south.”
But while other states were collapsing, said Netanyahu, Israel was not — because of the strength of its leadership, its army and its people. “We will defend ourselves on every front, defensively and offensively,” he vowed.
In a lot of ways I agree with Prime Minister Netanyahu. It was definitely a huge mistake (security wise), on Israel's part, to pull out of Gaza.
Would not be surprised at all to see Israel move into Gaza on a permanent basis. Its the only way they will rid themselves of Hamas and any other terrorists. God forbid if ISIS should ever establish themselves in Gaza.
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Is the UN counting bodies? Or do they get the figure from what Hamas reports to them?
This is the same UN that allows rockets to be stored in their schools, and their schools and hospitals to be used as military posts/launch sites by Hamas?
