Russia is ineffective against undermanned and under armed Ukraine. They can’t take on a Europe force. Get in there, make a deal for minerals, and drop troops. Tell Trump to pound sand.
If Europe wants this, get at it. Why let the US run amok?
Don't worry, they had a meeting about a meeting the other day. And although they weren't able to come to an agreement yet again, they agreed to meet again to have a meeting should the need for another meeting arise. Seriously.
The US going full train off the cliff was predicted the moment Trump 1.0 was elected and everybody, including Canada, should have prepped lot better then what we did instead of relying on an uneducated idiot population in the US to fix things. Especially the EU, given they move at a snail's pace. As upset as I am with the west for pussyfooting around and the domino effect that is now falling, and Trump for doing...whatever the hell he's doing, the EU is by far the biggest disappointment in all of this. I don't care how many pie charts, graphs, or scales are shown as to how much they have done. This fight in on their soil, with a recent history of large scale wars happening, and still there are meetings about meetings going on. FFS, not only are the russians knocking at the door, but now the US is coming up the rear and without lube.
I read over and over and over again that Europe can mop the floor with russia without the US, but with each passing day that seems less and less likely that is actually true. When a meeting about a meeting can't be coordinated properly and a unified decision made, how the hell can you believe that they would show up when it truly matters? Nah, I think the EU knows damn well the pickle they are in and are really struggling to come to grasps with reality.
Was told over and over again how great the west was doing when they were happy to drip feed Ukraine arms and put restrictions on them. After all, wouldn't want to the conflict to "spill over" lest we start sending our children from this side of the continent over to fight in a war that isn't ours. Yet, that policy and subsequent domino effect (including Canadian annexation talks, which mirror what Ukraine went through pre-2022 invasion) now makes that scenario more likely then ever.
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I'm not sure what kind of a "unified decision" were you expecting?
The near future is extremely unclear with what Trump plans to do, this is not a good time to make large scale, longterm plans.
It's not like Europe isn't constantly doing things already. They've already upped their arms production, and more significantly have helped Ukraine up their domestic arms production, which has resulted in Ukraine now being able to manufacture large sections of it's materiel locally.
Europe has also very significantly helped bring the artillery imbalance from 10 to 1 shots fired for Russia to the roughly 2 to 1 number where it is now, which has had a massive impact on the front, and is a big reason why Russian casualty numbers have been skyrocketing.
The media does a terrible job on reporting any of this, just like they do a terrible job on reporting on basically anything and everything related to this war.
Russian material shortage is seriously at a point where they're using donkeys, their tactics have devolved back into constant use of meatwave tactics, and due to the waste of men the experience level of their troops is not going up the same way Ukrainian units are becoming better and better at fighting this war.
There isn't really an immediate thing that needs reacting to right now beyond the need to manage the information space, and European leaders have been giving plenty of statements trying to affect that.
But mostly the meetings at this point are just about preparation and sharing information. Other than that, Europe keeps doing what it's doing and waits whether or not something actually comes out of the negotiations.
There is after all the possibility that the negotiations go nowhere.
The war has been looking more winnable lately than it has in a long time, to the point where US support might not even be mandatory anymore.
Still doesn't mean Ukraine will win, but it does mean that there is no point in panicking over Trumps verbal diarrhea right now.
Last edited by Itse; 02-19-2025 at 11:31 PM.
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I'm not sure what kind of a "unified decision" were you expecting?
The near future is extremely unclear with what Trump plans to do, this is not a good time to make large scale, longterm plans.
It's not like Europe isn't constantly doing things already. They've already upped their arms production, and more significantly have helped Ukraine up their domestic arms production, which has resulted in Ukraine now being able to manufacture large sections of it's materiel locally.
Europe has also very significantly helped bring the artillery imbalance from 10 to 1 shots fired for Russia to the roughly 2 to 1 number where it is now, which has had a massive impact on the front, and is a big reason why Russian casualty numbers have been skyrocketing.
The media does a terrible job on reporting any of this, just like they do a terrible job on reporting on basically anything and everything related to this war.
Russian material shortage is seriously at a point where they're using donkeys, their tactics have devolved back into constant use of meatwave tactics, and due to the waste of men the experience level of their troops is not going up the same way Ukrainian units are becoming better and better at fighting this war.
There isn't really an immediate thing that needs reacting to right now beyond the need to manage the information space, and European leaders have been giving plenty of statements trying to affect that.
But mostly the meetings at this point are just about preparation and sharing information. Other than that, Europe keeps doing what it's doing and waits whether or not something actually comes out of the negotiations.
There is after all the possibility that the negotiations go nowhere.
The war has been looking more winnable lately than it has in a long time, to the point where US support might not even be mandatory anymore.
Still doesn't mean Ukraine will win, but it does mean that there is no point in panicking over Trumps verbal diarrhea right now.
The situation on the ground may be that, but Trumps comments and current actions are egregious and shouldn’t be minimized. He is using Russian talking points to discredit Zelynsky, thus legitimizing the Russian side. It will create in th US a ground swell of support for those same talking points amongst the MAGA gang who believe all that he says.
If the US walks away from this war and Europe in general, it will signify and embolden both Eussia and China, Words matter, and actions ,after and right now he’s Rai,ing at both. It’s not panick,it’s a real situation.
Europe has also very significantly helped bring the artillery imbalance from 10 to 1 shots fired for Russia to the roughly 2 to 1 number where it is now, which has had a massive impact on the front, and is a big reason why Russian casualty numbers have been skyrocketing.
.
This makes me wonder if the Ukrainians might have achieved parity through great technology when it comes to artillery.
I don't know a whole lot about the big guns, but I know most NATO guns/shells have the ability to be pretty precise. I'd suspect a lot of Russian guns/shells lack that ability.
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I think it's 50:50 that Trump starts to supply Russia with materiel if Ukraine doesn't take his request to surrender.
I think this is one of the few scenarios that would cause a military revolt. Can't see the US military apparatus, which was built and designed to kill Russia, supplying weapons to russians willingly.
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Originally Posted by marsplasticeraser
I think it's 50:50 that Trump starts to supply Russia with materiel if Ukraine doesn't take his request to surrender.
Yeah - I think you're right. Firstly, Trump has a personal axe to grind with Zelensky for not playing ball on Hunter Biden dirt during the perfect phonecall. Secondly, Trump is first and foremost about enriching himself. Putin of course knows this, so if negotiations don't pan out, I'm sure Putin will offer Trump billions personally in some form or another to get some weaponry to win the war.
Zelensky has the tape of the phonecall - presumably - which he has never released. Hopefully he does it right away if Trump goes down this path, at the very least to try to create a scandal in the US and reopen the first of Trump's reasons for impeachment.
I'm not sure what kind of a "unified decision" were you expecting?
The near future is extremely unclear with what Trump plans to do, this is not a good time to make large scale, longterm plans.
It's not like Europe isn't constantly doing things already. They've already upped their arms production, and more significantly have helped Ukraine up their domestic arms production, which has resulted in Ukraine now being able to manufacture large sections of it's materiel locally.
Europe has also very significantly helped bring the artillery imbalance from 10 to 1 shots fired for Russia to the roughly 2 to 1 number where it is now, which has had a massive impact on the front, and is a big reason why Russian casualty numbers have been skyrocketing.
The media does a terrible job on reporting any of this, just like they do a terrible job on reporting on basically anything and everything related to this war.
Russian material shortage is seriously at a point where they're using donkeys, their tactics have devolved back into constant use of meatwave tactics, and due to the waste of men the experience level of their troops is not going up the same way Ukrainian units are becoming better and better at fighting this war.
There isn't really an immediate thing that needs reacting to right now beyond the need to manage the information space, and European leaders have been giving plenty of statements trying to affect that.
But mostly the meetings at this point are just about preparation and sharing information. Other than that, Europe keeps doing what it's doing and waits whether or not something actually comes out of the negotiations.
There is after all the possibility that the negotiations go nowhere.
The war has been looking more winnable lately than it has in a long time, to the point where US support might not even be mandatory anymore.
Still doesn't mean Ukraine will win, but it does mean that there is no point in panicking over Trumps verbal diarrhea right now.
I like your hopium and truly hope you are right. The hope has always been to have Europe ween off US aid knowing this was coming so let's hope that it's true the EU has finally woken up and realizes the time is up for thoughts and prayers. Having the US back out of supporting not only Ukraine, but seemingly Europe as a whole, is a threat that has to be taken seriously and would have massively huge ramification if true.
There is news recently that NK is prepping another large shipment of shells and missiles to send to russia very soon. Haven't kept up to speed on if Iran is still helping or not, and undoubtedly China is helping in their own way. Easy to laugh at russians riding in donkeys, but at the end of the day all these entities combine to kill Ukrainians and destroy a country on European land.
A phrase that has often been used in this conflict is that it's going to get worse before it gets better, and unfortunately I feel like another dip is going to happen. The American president literally parroting russian talking points is not a good sign. Ask Canadians how we feel about annexation talks towards us and if we should brush it off as verbal diarrhea. Everything that comes out of that goof's mouth needs to be taken seriously and prepped for.
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This makes me wonder if the Ukrainians might have achieved parity through great technology when it comes to artillery.
I don't know a whole lot about the big guns, but I know most NATO guns/shells have the ability to be pretty precise. I'd suspect a lot of Russian guns/shells lack that ability.
When you are aiming at a city...you really don't need it.
I think this is one of the few scenarios that would cause a military revolt. Can't see the US military apparatus, which was built and designed to kill Russia, supplying weapons to russians willingly.
I wish I could agree.
There are purges throughout the military, CIA, and FBI to install Trump loyalists at all levels of leadership. What is happening in the US is a coup, no if/ands/or buts.
and there is no hope that the rank and file won't follow along. They are getting the same indoctrination as the rest of the US population. Further, the people who self-select to join the military are significantly more conservative to begin with.
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The situation on the ground may be that, but Trumps comments and current actions are egregious and shouldn’t be minimized. He is using Russian talking points to discredit Zelynsky, thus legitimizing the Russian side. It will create in th US a ground swell of support for those same talking points amongst the MAGA gang who believe all that he says.
If the US walks away from this war and Europe in general, it will signify and embolden both Eussia and China, Words matter, and actions ,after and right now he’s Rai,ing at both. It’s not panick,it’s a real situation.
I definitely agree that Trumps words have already done a ton of harm (and essentially giving Putin everything he wants without anything in return). Just his promise to end the war has given Russia a much needed surge of new volunteers, who signed up with the hope that they could take the enormous signing bonuses without ever having to do actual fighting. In that sense he has already directly hurt Ukraine and helped Putin.
However, my comment was about the fact that even though Trump is making things worse, that doesn't mean that Europe is doing nothing, or that they should do some big kneejerk reaction at a point in time when there's so much uncertainty in the air.
I think there is also a very real possibility that not much actually comes out of these negotiations between US and Russia. They can't actually stop the war between the two of them after all, and Trump has already thrown away most of the leverage the US had over Ukraine.
I'm sure it will create a ton of headlines and outrageous public statements, and it will move sentiments in the US, but sentiments don't win wars, and if the war isn't ending, I'm not at all sure Trump wants to be involved.
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You are right in that the negotiations between Russia and US won't amount to much. More than anything it's for show so the russians can pretend they are still relevant and have a seat at the big boy table. I don't think it's anything more than that. While it parallels to what happened back in the 30s, IMO Zelensky and his team are smarter than the US and RU, have planned for this exact scenario, and aren't bitches like the Americans are. The Ukrainians have fight in them, arms, and are slowly but surely getting stronger on their own. The countries in the 30s that got carved up simply didn't have that kind of support Ukraine has now.
I meant it more in the sense that the ball is now fully in the EU's court. There is no doubt any longer that the fate of not only Ukraine but Europe rests in their hands and the US cannot be counted on. Unfortunately, said hands often move slow in various stages, and you have outliers like Hungary and Slovakia who can issue their veto vote, and have done so already. Heck, any country in the EU is susceptible to russian influence and can suddenly swing the other way. That is a fine line to walk. The requirement for a unanimous decision is one of the things that makes the EU as strong as it, but also what makes it weak in times like this.
Yes, a lot of it is public outrage and poor media reporting. But public opinion matters, and russia plays that game better than anyone. Just the perception of a slow-moving Europe (true or not) is detrimental to Ukraine's effort. There was a rumor recently about some massive game-changing aid package to the entire continent's defensive effort that would help to reshape things and they are waiting to announce it after the German elections on Sunday. Rumors have quieted down recently, so not sure if it was true or not. But having some kind of big breakthrough "kneejerk reaction" such as this would be a huge positive.
Last edited by Huntingwhale; 02-21-2025 at 09:37 AM.
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You are right in that the negotiations between Russia and US won't amount to much. More than anything it's for show so the russians can pretend they are still relevant and have a seat at the big boy table. I don't think it's anything more than that. While it parallels to what happened back in the 30s, IMO Zelensky and his team are smarter than the US and RU, have planned for this exact scenario, and aren't bitches like the Americans are. The Ukrainians have fight in them, arms, and are slowly but surely getting stronger on their own. The countries in the 30s that got carved up simply didn't have that kind of support Ukraine has now.
I meant it more in the sense that the ball is now fully in the EU's court. There is no doubt any longer that the fate of not only Ukraine but Europe rests in their hands and the US cannot be counted on. Unfortunately, said hands often move slow in various stages, and you have outliers like Hungary and Slovakia who can issue their veto vote, and have done so already. Heck, any country in the EU is susceptible to russian influence and can suddenly swing the other way. That is a fine line to walk. The requirement for a unanimous decision is one of the things that makes the EU as strong as it, but also what makes it weak in times like this.
Yes, a lot of it is public outrage and poor media reporting. But public opinion matters, and russia plays that game better than anyone. Just the perception of a slow-moving Europe (true or not) is detrimental to Ukraine's effort. There was a rumor recently about some massive game-changing aid package to the entire continent's defensive effort that would help to reshape things and they are waiting to announce it after the German elections on Sunday. Rumors have quieted down recently, so not sure if it was true or not. But having some kind of big breakthrough "kneejerk reaction" such as this would be a huge positive.
Agreed on basically everything there.
If we're being fully honest, I'm basically expecting this year to surprise me multiple times in how fast things can take multiple really ugly turns, and that includes European cooperation.
With a fascist takeover in the US, every major power in the world lead by a more or less authoritarian figure (India, China, Russia and US), and I fully expect them to start collectively actively destroying democracies around the world.
It won't be pretty.
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Article in NYT today saying Ukraine is seriously considering accepting the US shakedown of 50% of their wealth.
I actually think this is real "4D" chess by the Ukrainians. They're about to get effed by the US, so to accept this proposal would make sense to me. Most of those "rare earth minerals" are in the Russian-controlled part of Ukraine. Accept the deal and all of a sudden the Americans are asking Russia to kindly leave so they can make their billions?
Putin would be furious, and it would be tough for Trump to say no to a deal they proposed. Honestly, smart by the Ukrainians. Drive a wedge between em.
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Article in NYT today saying Ukraine is seriously considering accepting the US shakedown of 50% of their wealth.
I actually think this is real "4D" chess by the Ukrainians. They're about to get effed by the US, so to accept this proposal would make sense to me. Most of those "rare earth minerals" are in the Russian-controlled part of Ukraine. Accept the deal and all of a sudden the Americans are asking Russia to kindly leave so they can make their billions?
Putin would be furious, and it would be tough for Trump to say no to a deal they proposed. Honestly, smart by the Ukrainians. Drive a wedge between em.
Yup, and the years it would take to get to those minerals would likely surpass the Trump years likely helping the Ukrainians to make a better deal with a different government. 3D chess
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Originally Posted by Cheese
Yup, and the years it would take to get to those minerals would likely surpass the Trump years likely helping the Ukrainians to make a better deal with a different government. 3D chess
The real fly in the ointment is of course the fact that Fat Donnie has no qualms about breaking deals, so could backfire if he just lets Russia stay and demands payment from Ukrainian-controlled parts.
But, without knowing what the proposal looks like, this is the only theory that makes any sense as to why Ukraine would be considering it.
The real fly in the ointment is of course the fact that Fat Donnie has no qualms about breaking deals, so could backfire if he just lets Russia stay and demands payment from Ukrainian-controlled parts.
But, without knowing what the proposal looks like, this is the only theory that makes any sense as to why Ukraine would be considering it.
Yeah, you can't take Trump at his word for anything.
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