The Blue Jays: 2009 Season Thread

[JayP]

Originally Posted by moon

Does that "elite" fielding include the numerous mental errors he makes?

I am not sure I have seen a guy drop the ball so many times when trying to pick it up off the ground.

Thanks for proving my point.

Stats that show Rios as an elite fielder would include those occasional mental errors depending on the final outcome. If Rios fumbles a ball and there's an extra base taken because of it, the stats will include that.

It's funny because all you can think of watching Rios is mental errors. But think to yourself how often do they really happen and how big of an impact do they really have on the season. Nowhere near enough to over-ride his ability to make defensive plays.

[moon]

Originally Posted by ShaolinFlame

I think the article is saying he is fantastic when compared to Wells and the rest of the OF.

If that is the point then sure I guess that is true. Although he isn't exactly getting a lot of tough competition there.

You do understand that a lot of moneyball GMs use the very same sabermetric systems to evaluate talent? If these stats are bull, then Billy Beane is a loser, and Boston is a poorly managed franchise who got lucky - twice.

I do understand that they use it and I won't say that Beane is a loser, but he sure isn't much of a winner and Boston has won twice using many guys that don't fit in with their so-called money ball approach.

For all this hating on Rios, I haven't seen you provide any other options. Keep Wells and run Lind-Wells-Snider w Bautista..... If you think you have seen bad D this year...

I am not sure that it is "hating" on Rios and since I haven't ever said get rid of him I am not sure why I would provide other options.

I agree with those that say that you have to keep Rios at this point because there is no better option out there and no real chance that some team is going to make a deal for him that is worthwhile for the Jays.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by moon

Any system that uses stats to predict how many more wins a guy brings to a team is manipulating stats.

Uh, how?

It's simply based on how many runs created offensively and runs saved defensively a player has in a season. Then using the very common and very proven (and used by MLB GMs) rule that 10 additional runs created/saved = 1 win.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by moon

I do understand that they use it and I won't say that Beane is a loser, but he sure isn't much of a winner and Boston has won twice using many guys that don't fit in with their so-called money ball approach.

Which guys are these?

[moon]

Originally Posted by JayP

Thanks for proving my point.

I would love to say your welcome but it didn't prove your point at all. So I guess I will give you a half-hearted your welcome.

Stats that show Rios as an elite fielder would include those occasional mental errors depending on the final outcome. If Rios fumbles a ball and there's an extra base taken because of it, the stats will include that.

It's funny because all you can think of watching Rios is mental errors. But think to yourself how often do they really happen and how big of an impact do they really have on the season. Nowhere near enough to over-ride his ability to make defensive plays.

It isn't all that I can think of at all for Rios, but I guess you have to make that assumption for your point.

For me an elite fielder doesn't make those mental mistakes as often as Rios does. That is something that the stats can't factor in because all they do is look at the numbers. The numbers can say all they want but in my view part of fielding is not being a lazy/uninterested guy who makes the mistakes that Rios does.

[moon]

Originally Posted by JayP

Uh, how?

It's simply based on how many runs created offensively and runs saved defensively a player has in a season. Then using the very common and very proven (and used by MLB GMs) rule that 10 additional runs created/saved = 1 win.

Because it is using selective stats.

It may be a widely accepted way to use the numbers, but it still manipulates stats by only looking at some of the aspects of the game.

[ShaolinFlame]

This has devolved into a half argument with a lot of nitpicking.

I think we should all just agree to hate Rogers so very very much. I refuse to buy those extra freaking channels.

[moon]

Originally Posted by JayP

Which guys are these?

Perhaps didn't fit isn't the right term as guys like Ortiz, Manny and Pedroia fit into any "system".

What I should have said was that the Red Sox didn't win because of a moneyball approach, they won because they had a ton of money and bought the best players.

As mentioned above Manny, Ortiz, Pedroia, Damon, Beckett, Schilling, Papelbon aren't gems that would be ignored by other guys but picked up because Theo believes in money and sabermetrics. These are star players that would be gladly taken by any team in the league no matter what their opinion was on sabermetrics.

The Red Sox can say they follow the ideas of moneyball and sabermetrics but the reality is that they follow the idea of spending money for the best players no matter whether they fit into that system or not.

[FanIn80]

Are the Jays even a valid franchise anymore?

[Machiavelli]

Overpaid---er.....Overbay done gone and screwed up what looked very promising for Romero and the Jays!

[GirlySports]

Wow the old white uniforms look awesome!

Why did they ever change them?

[Sylvanfan]

You should love Rogers, you get to see a legitimate game tonight with two real teams. 14th inning and the Yankees and Red Sox are 0-0 at the new Yankee Stadium.

[Flickered Flame]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

You should love Rogers, you get to see a legitimate game tonight with two real teams. 14th inning and the Yankees and Red Sox are 0-0 at the new Yankee Stadium.

A-Rod with a 2 run walk off HR in the bottom of the 15th for the Yankees.

[metallicat]

What a game! I went for pizza in the bottom of the 8th, and then started watching when I got home in the bottom of the 9th. What a win! 4.5 game lead overthr Sox!!

[JayP]

Originally Posted by moon

For me an elite fielder doesn't make those mental mistakes as often as Rios does. That is something that the stats can't factor in because all they do is look at the numbers. The numbers can say all they want but in my view part of fielding is not being a lazy/uninterested guy who makes the mistakes that Rios does.

Don't comment on something you clearly know nothing about.

Advanced fielding stats take every part of the game into account. They split the field into 70+ different zones to determine range. Arm is accounted for not only by outfield assists, but also the ability to deny runners extra bases (turning singles into doubles and going from 1st to 3rd on a single). Errors also play a factor.

As I said before, if Rios mistakes actually have an impact on the game (ie; a runner gets an extra base) they are accounted for in advanced fielding stats.

I'd like to see who you consider elite fielders and compare them to what the stats say.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by moon

Because it is using selective stats.

It may be a widely accepted way to use the numbers, but it still manipulates stats by only looking at some of the aspects of the game.

Um, these stats include batting, fielding, and baserunning.

Which parts of the game are they leaving out? It's funny because you clearly know nothing about how the stats are formulated yet still have reason to bash them.

[moon]

Originally Posted by JayP

Um, these stats include batting, fielding, and baserunning.

Which parts of the game are they leaving out? It's funny because you clearly know nothing about how the stats are formulated yet still have reason to bash them.

They don't take all the stats of those factors into account. They choose the stats that they think are important and use them.

I understand the way the stats are formulated just fine thanks.

[bluejays]

The Star has an article on their website up now which says Riccardi was peeved about word getting out about Rios on waivers. Riccardi says that the Jays always put guys on waivers and it's no big deal. They mention that Halladay was not put on waivers this year, but Riccardi has put him on it in past seasons. I thought Riccardi said he never even considered dealing the guy and would turn down teams right away if his name was brought up. This guy's a compulsive liar if that article is accurate. What a bum.


On a side note, I'm going to this afternoon's game...last one I'll go to this season. Next year will be probably be much worse than this years team, so might as well take this one in.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by moon

They don't take all the stats of those factors into account. They choose the stats that they think are important and use them.

I understand the way the stats are formulated just fine thanks.

No they actually choose stats that have a high correlation with winning and use those.

This isn't mudcrutch trying to find stats that prove how great the Oilers are here (Even Strength Save % anyone?). These are neutral observers (many of which have gone on to be employed by MLB teams).

[Saint Troy]

Originally Posted by fleury

The Star has an article on their website up now which says Riccardi was peeved about word getting out about Rios on waivers. Riccardi says that the Jays always put guys on waivers and it's no big deal. They mention that Halladay was not put on waivers this year, but Riccardi has put him on it in past seasons. I thought Riccardi said he never even considered dealing the guy and would turn down teams right away if his name was brought up. This guy's a compulsive liar if that article is accurate. What a bum.


On a side note, I'm going to this afternoon's game...last one I'll go to this season. Next year will be probably be much worse than this years team, so might as well take this one in.

Ricciardi leaks info to Espn and SI consistently, and when he is inevitably fired he will pop up as an analyst very quickly.