Toronto Blue Jays vs. Cleveland Indians - ALCS

[Senator Clay Davis]

Jose is gonna get taunted with "Boots" and "Circumstances" the remainder of his career. Probably skips out on media tonight too. I still think there's a decent chance he comes back though even if most people don't want him to.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

I'm thinking the assets would be minimal as Cincy wants out from the contract. Only reason he may be available. Didn't know about the social complex.

I can't remember much about it, I just remember watching or reading a story on it one time. I'm sure he's managed it or he still wouldn't be producing at the level he is, but if I remember correctly he had anxiety attacks because he felt too much pressure. I doubt being the hometown hero expected to hit 40hrs and bat .300 in one of the biggest media markets in North America is likely high on his lists of wants in life.

[GirlySports]

Coco crisp and rajai davis are free agents. Bring that speed over

[SuperMatt18]

The series was a lot closer than the end result seems though. Really when you look at the actual batting stats, hits, and pitching stats the teams were really close. Biggest difference really was that the Jays starters were giving up untimely home runs, and the Jays batters were not making the Indians pay for their mistakes.

Game 1: 2-0 Indians

Hits: 7-6 Blue Jays
HR: 2 Run HR for Lindor

Game 2: 2-1 Indians

Hits: 4-3 Indians
HR: Solo HR for Santana

Game 3: 4-2 Indians

Hits: 7-7
Home Runs: Napoli Solo HR, Kipnis Solo HR

Game 4: 5-1 Jays

Hits: 9-2 Jays
HR: Donaldson Solo HR

Game 5: 3-0 Indians

Hits: 6-6
HR: Crisp Solo HR, Santana Solo HR

The main difference in the series were the Home runs. The Indians didn't outhit they Jays at all, or play "small ball" any better than the Jays did. (Outside of Game 4 where the Jays outhit the Indians 9-2, the hits were even 23-23).

The difference in the series was that the Indians hit 6 home runs, and the Jays only hit 1 HR. Jays batters let the Indians pitchers get away with mistakes and every time a Jays pitcher made a mistake it was crushed.

Even the bullpens were close outside of IP (which was all from the Bauer start).

Jays bullpen: 12.2 - 0 ER
Indians bullpen: 22 Innings Pitched - 4 ER

[Senator Clay Davis]

868904 nailed this a few pages ago, but it's easy to say the Indians simply had more "luck" because they hit 6 HRs and the Jays hit 1, but you make your own luck. The Jays went to the plate more often than not looking to make splash hits and homers. The Indians went to the plate and took what the Jays pitchers gave them. The more disciplined hitting team naturally hit more home runs than the team who kept trying to hit home runs. Too many guys went up for the Jays to be a hero. Lame as it seems sometimes a single is pretty heroic.

[cross16]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

The statements aren't mutually exclusive. The Indians are a damn good ball team. But the Jays offence still choked.

Baustista likely mouthed his way out of Toronto this series, but take his money and get a decent bat in replacement, and make sure you get EE re-signed, and we can make a go of it next year.

Choke to me means you failed to deliver to your potential. The Jays offence is flawed and has been all season. Indians didn't do anything differently then other teams have done. Good pitching has basically shut down the Jays offence all year so why should we have expected Cleveland be any different?

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

The series was a lot closer than the end result seems though. Really when you look at the actual batting stats, hits, and pitching stats the teams were really close. Biggest difference really was that the Jays starters were giving up untimely home runs, and the Jays batters were not making the Indians pay for their mistakes.

Game 1: 2-0 Indians

Hits: 7-6 Blue Jays
HR: 2 Run HR for Lindor

Game 2: 2-1 Indians

Hits: 4-3 Indians
HR: Solo HR for Santana

Game 3: 4-2 Indians

Hits: 7-7
Home Runs: Napoli Solo HR, Kipnis Solo HR

Game 4: 5-1 Jays

Hits: 9-2 Jays
HR: Donaldson Solo HR

Game 5: 3-0 Indians

Hits: 6-6
HR: Crisp Solo HR, Santana Solo HR

The main difference in the series were the Home runs. The Indians didn't outhit they Jays at all, or play "small ball" any better than the Jays did. (Outside of Game 4 where the Jays outhit the Indians 9-2, the hits were even 23-23).

The difference in the series was that the Indians hit 6 home runs, and the Jays only hit 1 HR. Jays batters let the Indians pitchers get away with mistakes and every time a Jays pitcher made a mistake it was crushed.

Even the bullpens were close outside of IP (which was all from the Bauer start).

Jays bullpen: 12.2 - 0 ER
Indians bullpen: 22 Innings Pitched - 4 ER

Again, that is too simplistic of a way at a looking at it. X team hit more home runs so they won, doesn't account for the fact that the pitchers need to make more adjustments when teams can play small ball and move runners with speed. The Indians didn't go out there to hit home runs, but they did because of good at bats and patience at the plate. The Blue Jays go there swinging at every pitch looking to put it in the upper deck.

I hate small ball. It's boring in my mind, but you need to be able to at least dabble in it for when you are suffering a power outage. Jays are not capable of that. I'm not saying replacing the entire team with a bunch of scrawny little speedsters, but they need more balance in their lineup.

Do you not think it plays on a pitchers mind when he knows if he walks someone on Cleveland that they can steal second and be home on the next pitch? They don't have to think about that with Toronto. Walk a guy, who cares? Next guy will strike out or hit into a double play.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Again, that is too simplistic of a way at a looking at it. X team hit more home runs so they won, doesn't account for the fact that the pitchers need to make more adjustments when teams can play small ball and move runners with speed. The Indians didn't go out there to hit home runs, but they did because of good at bats and patience at the plate. The Blue Jays go there swinging at every pitch looking to put it in the upper deck.

I hate small ball. It's boring in my mind, but you need to be able to at least dabble in it for when you are suffering a power outage. Jays are not capable of that. I'm not saying replacing the entire team with a bunch of scrawny little speedsters, but they need more balance in their lineup.

Do you not think it plays on a pitchers mind when he knows if he walks someone on Cleveland that they can steal second and be home on the next pitch? They don't have to think about that with Toronto. Walk a guy, who cares? Next guy will strike out or hit into a double play.

It's not too simplistic though - it's exactly what happened this series. It's not like Cleveland out hit the Jays or used small ball to generate their runsite, they won because of the long ball.

It's not talked about but in 5 games the Jays bullpen gave up no runs.

I agree 100% that the Jays need to fix their approach at the plate and that their need to always swing for the fence cost them.

But that doesn't change the fact that this series was closer than 4-1 and that the only difference between the two teams was that they Indians hit timely home runs.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Except they didn't .

Just saying it doesn't make it so !

They didn't have to. They led early in the first three games, which effectively sealed the outcome, and all games that they won.
As cold as the Jays bats were, I would have liked to see the Jays try and manufacture runs — but that has never been part of Gibbons managerial strategy. If the three run shot doesn't happen, they got no other answer.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

It's not too simplistic though - it's exactly what happened this series. It's not like Cleveland out hit the Jays or used small ball to generate their runsite, they won because of the long ball.

It's not talked about but in 5 games the Jays bullpen gave up no runs.

I agree 100% that the Jays need to fix their approach at the plate and that their need to always swing for the fence cost them.

But that doesn't change the fact that this series was closer than 4-1 and that the only difference between the two teams was that they Indians hit timely home runs.

How can you say this series was closer than 4-1? Other than game 4, at what point did you actually think the Jays were going to win a game? I can't think of a single point. Scores may have been low, but Cleveland victories were never in doubt in my mind.

[wingmaker]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

How can you say this series was closer than 4-1? Other than game 4, at what point did you actually think the Jays were going to win a game? I can't think of a single point. Scores may have been low, but Cleveland victories were never in doubt in my mind.

Because it was. The difference in game one was a single hit. Game two was a one run game. The only two games that were actually one sided were games four and five.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

How can you say this series was closer than 4-1? Other than game 4, at what point did you actually think the Jays were going to win a game? I can't think of a single point. Scores may have been low, but Cleveland victories were never in doubt in my mind.

Sure when you look back it feels like that but in every game the Jays had solid starts from their starters, the bullpen gave up no runs, and they were always in striking distance .

The difference was Indians hit big home runs (most of them solo hrs) and they Jays couldn't get a hit with runners in scoring position if their lives depended on it.

They could have won any of the first 3 games and were unlucky to be down 3-0 IMO.

Game 1 specifically the Jays had their chances and couldn't plate.

I look back to game 1 and question how different this series would be if they would have scored in the first inning on Kluber.

Get runs there and this whole series is different - it really was that close.

[St. Pats]

Really kind of fitting that they don't score in the final game. Sums the team up to me.

[cross16]

Surprised how much flax Gibbons take for not manufacturing more runs. To do that effectively you need team speed and guys who can put that ball in play. Jays struggle I'm boths of those aspects.

To me Gibbons manages the lineup he has. Jays are built to hit home runs. Construction of their lineup is what needs to change.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by wingmaker

Because it was. The difference in game one was a single hit. Game two was a one run game. The only two games that were actually one sided were games four and five.

That's bull. The Indians got leads and you knew from the 7th inning onwards with their bullpen that they were winning the game each and every game that occurred. I doubt Toronto wins a game if Bauer doesn't get hurt.

The scores may have been low, but the outcome was never in doubt. Cleveland controlled each and everyone of those games outside of game 4 from start to finish. This series wasn't close at all. The final tally reflects exactly what happened.

[TheAlpineOracle]

A series is not close if each and everyone of us in this thread could predict the outcome as soon as Cleveland got a lead.

This team still has the foundation to be great though. We'll be right back in it next year assuming we resign Edwin and do something with our godawful outfield. We need to get some guys on base, and they need to have some speed.

I thought this would be our last year to challenge, but our pitching has changed my mind. This team will continue to be a threat, and I think could still win it all with the right changes and approach. If we get a repeat pitching performance, I think we can be an even better team.

I think Gibbons also needs to leave as well. He's served his purpose. Letting the inmates run the asylum doesn't generally work. I'm not a fan of his approach at all. He needs to keep people accountable.

[SuperMatt18]

Your pessimistic attitude towards the team is clouding what actually happened.

Games 1 and 2 were very close and most people were confident coming back to the Rogers centre

Game 3 was where the tide shifted and Indians took full control.

I'm thinking back to games 1 and 2 which were both toss ups IMO.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Just finished the game. Such a disappointing series. What a way to bow out of the playoffs. Still really exciting to see the team make back to back ALCS series'.

I think the building blocks are still in place for a great team.

Starting pitching is the hardest thing to find in baseball and the Jays have four great starting pitchers.

Priority number one should be re-signing EE. I expect Shapiro to pursue that hard.

I am guessing Liriano is going to be the fifth starter for the Jays next year.

[TheAlpineOracle]

My "Reign October" Blue Jays hoody that I ordered hasn't even arrived to house yet, and Jersey City has already emailed me trying to get me to order Cleveland World Series Gear....... Trying to surpress my rage!

[puffnstuff]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

My "Reign October" Blue Jays hoody that I ordered hasn't even arrived to house yet, and Jersey City has already emailed me trying to get me to order Cleveland World Series Gear....... Trying to surpress my rage!

No...let the hate flow thru you...use it...let it flow...now go down to that store and confront them about it.
And film it.
And share it with us.

I have some free time now that I wont be watching baseball and I need to fill it somehow.