Ongoing US Mass Shooting Thread

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Are you suggesting the reason to have guns is to protect against the police?

The mantra of the gun nuts is always any price is worth paying to protect the U.S.'s freedom from a tyrannical government, ironically while they enthusiastically support the most tyrannical wing of a tyrannical government that does anything it wants up to and including murdering American citizens without trial under the guise of the war on terror, locking up a multi millions of its citizens under the guise of the war on drugs.

The real problem with the U.S. is that as a population the U.S. is incredibly stupid on a political level, they are the most easily manipulated population in the advanced world.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by driveway

I personally am in favour of repealing the 2nd Amendment and kicking down doors to take guns away, or rather, I would be if I lived in the States. As I don't live there I don't really care what the States decides to do.

I'm simply allowing that there are arguments which could be made against the idea of repealing the 2nd, that some of them could be considered logical, and that one of the ones I would listen to is the argument that Americans need to be able to protect themselves against the police.

Again though, totally personally in favour of a repeal of the 2nd and door-kicking, gun-grabbing laws.

Although, the first people I would take guns away from are the police. That's an important step in my "get rid of the guns plan."

Step one: Repeal 2nd Amendment.
Step two: Disarm the police.
Step three: Make handguns illegal to own or purchase, no handguns get 'grandfathered' into legality.
Step four: Confiscate and destroy every handgun in the nation.

Step 4 is impossible. Pie in the sky.

[Displaced Flames fan]

My plan.

1. Decriminalize drugs. Regulate market and tax sales.
2. All gun crimes carry mandatory life sentences.
3. Mandatory background checks, waiting period and strict regulation of private sales (shows).
4. Conviction of any violent crime, domestic or otherwise, results in forfeiture of gun ownership priveleges.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

My plan.

1. Decriminalize drugs. Regulate market and tax sales.
2. All gun crimes carry mandatory life sentences.
3. Mandatory background checks, waiting period and strict regulation of private sales (shows).
4. Conviction of any violent crime, domestic or otherwise, results in forfeiture of gun ownership priveleges.

I would maybe drop the life sentence for the first offense to maybe 20 years (without any chance of early release). Second offense I'm good with life.

However I would add a drug test and mental health examination, as well as mandatory education to make sure the person knows how to operate/clean/disarm the weapon properly. Also an annual registration for each weapon owned, as well as strict laws regarding storage.

[Displaced Flames fan]

That last part of your addition is key. Inadequate storage then becomes a gun crime.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

My plan.

1. Decriminalize drugs. Regulate market and tax sales.
2. All gun crimes carry mandatory life sentences.
3. Mandatory background checks, waiting period and strict regulation of private sales (shows).
4. Conviction of any violent crime, domestic or otherwise, results in forfeiture of gun ownership priveleges.

These aren't really compatible. Regulating and taxing is for legalized drugs. Decriminalizing just takes away the illegality of possession, not sale.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

2. All gun crimes carry mandatory life sentences.

What constitutes a 'gun crime'? Does the gun have to be used in the commission (IE: bullets actually fired). Or does mandatory life come into play if the gun is just brandished? Used in a 'threatening' manner, but not fired? Simply on the person of the offender committing the crime?

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

What constitutes a 'gun crime'? Does the gun have to be used in the commission (IE: bullets actually fired). Or does mandatory life come into play if the gun is just brandished? Used in a 'threatening' manner, but not fired? Simply on the person of the offender committing the crime?

Any crime committed using a gun, fired or not.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by nik-

These aren't really compatible. Regulating and taxing is for legalized drugs. Decriminalizing just takes away the illegality of possession, not sale.

Ok. Legalize marijuana.

[Wormius]

Maybe it is time to limit the manufacture of guns and ammunition. Why are they still even being made? Aren't there already enough out in circulation already? And don't serious gun owners manufacture their own ammunition?

Maybe its just time to incentivize the reduction. "Want to reduce your sentence for a gun crime - get your pals to bring in 50 guns, and we'll take a couple of years off sentence."

[wwkayaker]

It didn't take long for another mass shooting to happen. What a disgrace and a baby shot too. Nobody dead though which is a nice change.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/21/us/phi...ing/index.html

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Step 4 is impossible. Pie in the sky.

It would take a decade or two is all, essentially a huge amount come in quickly, maybe half of all guns, as most people dont want to break the law.

After that the price of black market guns goes up precipitously, then over the course of ten or fifteen years the cops pick the majority up in the course of investigations etc.

They'll always be some but they would become very expensive and hard to get.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

It would take a decade or two is all, essentially a huge amount come in quickly, maybe half of all guns, as most people dont want to break the law.

After that the price of black market guns goes up precipitously, then over the course of ten or fifteen years the cops pick the majority up in the course of investigations etc.

They'll always be some but they would become very expensive and hard to get.

We should do the same with drugs.

[Daradon]

What a lot of gun enthusiasts don't get, or at least don't want to get, is it isn't about eliminating all guns. It's about bringing the regulations and laws back down to earth.

I've been arguing this for several years now, and it still amazes me how many pro gun people think it's all or nothing. Not saying anyone on here right now, as it seems rather balanced, but in years past, we had guys like Calgaryborn, who echoed the all or nothing nonsense paradigm.

Mandatory checks. No sales at gun shows. Get rid of concealed carry, maybe even public carry (don't know if that's the term, you know what I mean).

These are rules I'm sure even 75% of enthusiasts would get behind.

But it's the NRA, who pitches for the lobbies that defeats this every time. They use fear to say, 'the government is coming to take all your precious guns away,' and voters go bonkers. Even the most liberal US politician does not want to get rid of guns! But you wouldn't know it the way the NRA talks.

Again, it comes down to lobbies and money. Shoot, the US couldn't even retire their penny which makes nothing but cents (haha) because CoinStar got their lobby going.

These are the worst kind of people. The people who disassociate from the effects of what they do, because they don't want to upset their bottom line. People who knowingly make the world a worse place, cause well profits. Course, they shrug it off by saying they have a responsibility to the shareholders. Pass the blame, pass the buck. Make money.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

My plan.

1. Decriminalize drugs. Regulate market and tax sales.
2. All gun crimes carry mandatory life sentences.
3. Mandatory background checks, waiting period and strict regulation of private sales (shows).
4. Conviction of any violent crime, domestic or otherwise, results in forfeiture of gun ownership priveleges.

I like a lot of things in this plan, though if we got into a lengthy debate, I'd start making some arguments around racism and classism being baked into the legal system in opposition to the 'all gun crimes require life sentences' provision.

The big problem is that, without a repeal of the 2nd, each and every part of it would face at least one, if not multiple, Supreme Court challenges.

That's why I think a repeal of the 2nd needs to come first. It doesn't necessarily need to lead to a plan as drastic or draconian as the one I'd favour, but it allows for the possibility of sensible controls.

With the presence of the 2nd in the Constitution, the possibility always exists of any gun control legislation being declared unconstitutional.

Repeal the 2nd first, then get to work on establishing a reasonable legal framework around guns.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

My plan.

1. Decriminalize drugs. Regulate market and tax sales.
2. All gun crimes carry mandatory life sentences.
3. Mandatory background checks, waiting period and strict regulation of private sales (shows).
4. Conviction of any violent crime, domestic or otherwise, results in forfeiture of gun ownership priveleges.

This plan would've done nothing to prevent Newtown, or the shooting in SC, although there is not a lot wrong with this plan. The probelm is that politics, interest groups and the media present such polarizing views creating political gridlock on yet another issue. An all out ban on guns will never happen at this point, heck they can barely ban assault rifles in most states. It has been said he vefore that guns need national legislation, not state legislation, which is a huge part of the problem. Responsible ownership and education is perhaps the biggest issue in the US. Parents having guns in the house along with people who should not have access to guns seems to be a common theme in the mass shooting cases.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

My plan.

1. Decriminalize drugs. Regulate market and tax sales.
2. All gun crimes carry mandatory life sentences.
3. Mandatory background checks, waiting period and strict regulation of private sales (shows).
4. Conviction of any violent crime, domestic or otherwise, results in forfeiture of gun ownership privileges.

The biggest problem is that it is written into the constitution as a right not a privilege.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Robbob

The biggest problem is that it is written into the constitution as a right not a privilege.

Interesting article I read about that....

For more than a hundred years, the answer was clear, even if the words of the amendment itself were not. The text of the amendment is divided into two clauses and is, as a whole, ungrammatical: “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” The courts had found that the first part, the “militia clause,” trumped the second part, the “bear arms” clause. In other words, according to the Supreme Court, and the lower courts as well, the amendment conferred on state militias a right to bear arms—but did not give individuals a right to own or carry a weapon.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-...cond-amendment

[llwhiteoutll]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

This plan would've done nothing to prevent Newtown, or the shooting in SC, although there is not a lot wrong with this plan. The probelm is that politics, interest groups and the media present such polarizing views creating political gridlock on yet another issue. An all out ban on guns will never happen at this point, heck they can barely ban assault rifles in most states. It has been said he vefore that guns need national legislation, not state legislation, which is a huge part of the problem. Responsible ownership and education is perhaps the biggest issue in the US. Parents having guns in the house along with people who should not have access to guns seems to be a common theme in the mass shooting cases.

Automatic weapons are regulated at the federal level under the NFA.

Basically, any automatic weapon made after May 1986 was only able to be sold to the government, law enforcement or the military and requires a specialized licensed by an FFL holder. For civilians ownership, they had to be manufactured and registered with the ATF prior to the law taking effect.

If you want to buy one, you have to cough up the insane price (usually tens of thousands), get approval from the ATF, get a signature from the chief LEO in your jurisdiction, pass a background check that includes submitting a photo and fingerprints, fully register it and receive written permission from the ATF.

The above actually applies to all NFA items as well.

The issue is that people lump semi-automatic sporting rifles into the same bucket as "assault weapons" based on cosmetic aspects that have nothing to do with the function of the firearm. Basically twisting words to make things more appear more dangerous and threatening.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by driveway

I like a lot of things in this plan, though if we got into a lengthy debate, I'd start making some arguments around racism and classism being baked into the legal system in opposition to the 'all gun crimes require life sentences' provision.

The big problem is that, without a repeal of the 2nd, each and every part of it would face at least one, if not multiple, Supreme Court challenges.

That's why I think a repeal of the 2nd needs to come first. It doesn't necessarily need to lead to a plan as drastic or draconian as the one I'd favour, but it allows for the possibility of sensible controls.

With the presence of the 2nd in the Constitution, the possibility always exists of any gun control legislation being declared unconstitutional.

Repeal the 2nd first, then get to work on establishing a reasonable legal framework around guns.

You can talk about repealing the 2nd amendment all you want. It is never going to happen. That movement will never have the level of support necessary to repeal an amendment.

That's why I feel it is necessary to start with realistic measures.