Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GGG

I don’t think foreign students at real universities is the issue that is driving the student immigration problem. It’s a terrible way to fund a university and limits access to Canadians but it’s a separate issue from the diploma mills and fake schools.

Given the number of international students applying for asylum, it seems likely lots of students at real universities see it as a back door to immigration as well. Students at real universities have protested the recent pullback in visas.

The bigger issue is the enormous increase in pending refugee claims across the board as a consequence of policy changes made by the Liberals since they came to power. In 2016, there were 3,000 asylum claims made at Canadian airports. After loosening restrictions around visas and proof of return flights, that figure rose to 41,000 in 2023.

In 2015, there were fewer than 10,000 people awaiting asylum claims in Canada. Today there are 260,000, and that number will likely increase dramatically as more of the unprecedented numbers of students and TFWs in the country face the deadline.

If Canada stopped accepting new asylum claims altogether (an impossible scenario), it would take 34 months to clear the backlog. The fact the backlog to process asylum claims has reached 3+ years is itself incentive to make a claim - spend a couple hours filling out paperwork and you’ve bought yourself at least three more years in Canada. Time in which you might get married or have kids, making it almost impossible to be deported.

In the space of a decade, Canada has gone from a country that didn’t have an illegal immigrant problem to speak of, to one where we may soon have close to half a million illegal immigrants in the country, with no effective infrastructure* to track their status, let alone enforce deportation.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...ed-to-act-now/

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...efugee-system/

* There was no need to devote government resources to tracking, identifying, and deporting those who defied the expiry of their visas or asylum claims when there were fewer than 10k in the country. But there will be a need to spend lots of government money and resources when we have 300k+.

[gasman]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

That’s exactly my point, they’ll never be entitled to it. They’ll also likely be hired at entry level rates and not be able to progress wage wise either.



No need to exaggerate, there are employers out there who offer their non-union employees above the minimums required under legislated employment standards, even in Alberta. But yeah, unionized employees generally get much more than those minimums required under employment standards and non-union employees if that’s the point you wanted to get across. They also can’t have their employment terminated without cause right before becoming entitled to a benefit increase like an additional week of paid vacation.

I'm not exaggerating anything. The maximum entitlement in Alberta is 3 weeks. I would be blown away if ANY low wage non union position ever got anything more.

6-7 weeks of vacation is only something that unionized government workers and executive level worker get.

No one is firing a 2 year TFW to avoid paying them 6-7weeks of vacation because that scenario doesn't exist.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Given the number of international students applying for asylum, it seems likely lots of students at real universities see it as a back door to immigration as well. Students at real universities have protested the recent pullback in visas.

The bigger issue is the enormous increase in pending refugee claims across the board as a consequence of policy changes made by the Liberals since they came to power. In 2016, there were 3,000 asylum claims made at Canadian airports. After loosening restrictions around visas and proof of return flights, that figure rose to 41,000 in 2023.

In 2015, there were fewer than 10,000 people awaiting asylum claims in Canada. Today there are 260,000, and that number will likely increase dramatically as more of the unprecedented numbers of students and TFWs in the country face the deadline.

If Canada stopped accepting new asylum claims altogether (an impossible scenario), it would take 34 months to clear the backlog. The fact the backlog to process asylum claims has reached 3+ years is itself incentive to make a claim - spend a couple hours filling out paperwork and you’ve bought yourself at least three more years in Canada. Time in which you might get married or have kids, making it almost impossible to be deported.

In the space of a decade, Canada has gone from a country that didn’t have an illegal immigrant problem to speak of, to one where we may soon have close to half a million illegal immigrants in the country, with no effective infrastructure* to track their status, let alone enforce deportation.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...ed-to-act-now/

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...efugee-system/

* There was no need to devote government resources to tracking, identifying, and deporting those who defied the expiry of their visas or asylum claims when there were fewer than 10k in the country. But there will be a need to spend lots of government money and resources when we have 300k+.

Compounded by things about to happen in the US under Trump, where illegal immigrants are threatened with deportation. How many of those will consider crossing the border to Canada?

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by gasman

I'm not exaggerating anything. The maximum entitlement in Alberta is 3 weeks. I would be blown away if ANY low wage non union position ever got anything more.

Well you’re kinda moving the goalposts on what you’re saying now by classifying it as only low wage positions but in any event you’re still wrong. The maximum legislated minimum is 3 weeks, however there are employers who give their non-union staff above the minimum. Although I personally haven’t seen any examples of a 7 week entitlement and have only seen 6 once, it’s not that uncommon to see vacation entitlements progress to 4-5 weeks.

It’ll probably be difficult to find examples online because I don’t know of any non-union private sector companies who post things like their progression grid for vacation entitlements publicly and most don’t but you may be able to find some examples on Reddit or something.

6-7 weeks of vacation is only something that unionized government workers and executive level worker get.

This is wrong. There are many examples of non-executive level private sector employees and unionized non-government workers who get that(once they have enough tenure obviously).

No one is firing a 2 year TFW to avoid paying them 6-7weeks of vacation because that scenario doesn't exist.

There are companies whose employees are unionized that are doing exactly that. They know that if they hire a citizen or PR and that employee doesn’t give them just cause to terminate their employment they will be able to remain employed with the company and eventually have 4, 5, 6 and 7 weeks of vacation entitlement annually. With a TFW the company ends their employment after 2 years or however long their contract is because they know the Union can’t force them to keep someone who can’t legally work here employed.

[gasman]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Well you’re kinda moving the goalposts on what you’re saying now by classifying it as only low wage positions but in any event you’re still wrong. The maximum legislated minimum is 3 weeks, however there are employers who give their non-union staff above the minimum. Although I personally haven’t seen any examples of a 7 week entitlement and have only seen 6 once, it’s not that uncommon to see vacation entitlements progress to 4-5 weeks.

It’ll probably be difficult to find examples online because I don’t know of any non-union private sector companies who post things like their progression grid for vacation entitlements publicly and most don’t but you may be able to find some examples on Reddit or something.



This is wrong. There are many examples of non-executive level private sector employees and unionized non-government workers who get that(once they have enough tenure obviously).



There are companies whose employees are unionized that are doing exactly that. They know that if they hire a citizen or PR and that employee doesn’t give them just cause to terminate their employment they will be able to remain employed with the company and eventually have 4, 5, 6 and 7 weeks of vacation entitlement annually. With a TFW the company ends their employment after 2 years or however long their contract is because they know the Union can’t force them to keep someone who can’t legally work here employed.

I didn't move any goal posts. The TFW program is primarily supplying low wage unskilled labour. Agriculture, and food service, accounts for over 50% of TFW. With less than10% of TFW in healthcare, education or any kind of professional setting.

Can you provide even one example of a company that is hiring and firing TFW to avoid having to pay them additional vacation?

[TorqueDog]

You're arguing different things.

There is no way someone hired as a TFW is fulfilling a role that -- if occupied by a Canadian citizen -- would be given 6-7 weeks vacation over virtually any amount of time employed. Think McDonald's fry cook. These folks are getting the maximum 3 weeks vacation as required by law after the requisite amount of time spent at the company and that's it.

At the same time, plenty of companies give large amounts of vacation time to FTEs with tenure that are not in management / executive positions. I get six weeks myself, and I'm no exec. But I'm also not in a role that a low-wage TFW would fill.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by gasman

I didn't move any goal posts. The TFW program is primarily supplying low wage unskilled labour. Agriculture, and food service, accounts for over 50% of TFW. With less than10% of TFW in healthcare, education or any kind of professional setting.

So you’re saying that there’s another 40% that work in other industries, some of which may not pay low wages? Like construction, manufacturing and distribution for example?

Can you provide even one example of a company that is hiring and firing TFW to avoid having to pay them additional vacation?

It might be difficult to obtain a signed confession from a CEO admitting that is their company’s intent since it’ll probably impact their ability to continue exploiting the program.

Do you have an alternate theory as to why companies who pay well enough and could hire citizens/PRs are opting to use TFWs on short term contracts despite the fact that they know they will have to replace that employee once they are sent home after their contract is up?

Reducing long term costs/liabilities seems like the most sensible explanation, especially when it happens at unionized workplaces that have qualified citizens/PRs applying who aren’t getting hired.

[gasman]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

You're arguing different things.

There is no way someone hired as a TFW is fulfilling a role that -- if occupied by a Canadian citizen -- would be given 6-7 weeks vacation over virtually any amount of time employed. Think McDonald's fry cook. These folks are getting the maximum 3 weeks vacation as required by law after the requisite amount of time spent at the company and that's it.

At the same time, plenty of companies give large amounts of vacation time to FTEs with tenure that are not in management / executive positions. I get six weeks myself, and I'm no exec. But I'm also not in a role that a low-wage TFW would fill.

My argument is rxactly what you are saying. A TFW is not filling a role that would ever get 6-7 weeks of vacation. I probably went over the top saying that it is limited to exec positions, I'll concede that point, but 6-7 weeks is an outlier even in professional environments (outside of public sector unions)

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

So you’re saying that there’s another 40% that work in other industries, some of which may not pay low wages? Like construction, manufacturing and distribution for example?



It might be difficult to obtain a signed confession from a CEO admitting that is their company’s intent since it’ll probably impact their ability to continue exploiting the program.

Do you have an alternate theory as to why companies who pay well enough and could hire citizens/PRs are opting to use TFWs on short term contracts despite the fact that they know they will have to replace that employee once they are sent home after their contract is up?

Reducing long term costs/liabilities seems like the most sensible explanation, especially when it happens at unionized workplaces that have qualified citizens/PRs applying who aren’t getting hired.

So you don’t have any companies doing this?

[gasman]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

So you’re saying that there’s another 40% that work in other industries, some of which may not pay low wages? Like construction, manufacturing and distribution for example?



It might be difficult to obtain a signed confession from a CEO admitting that is their company’s intent since it’ll probably impact their ability to continue exploiting the program.

Do you have an alternate theory as to why companies who pay well enough and could hire citizens/PRs are opting to use TFWs on short term contracts despite the fact that they know they will have to replace that employee once they are sent home after their contract is up?

Reducing long term costs/liabilities seems like the most sensible explanation, especially when it happens at unionized workplaces that have qualified citizens/PRs applying who aren’t getting hired.

I didn't ask for a signed confession, you are the one making the unfounded accusation. I asked for an example and your only answers is "lots".

As for manufacturing and construction they make up roughly 12% of the TFW program and largely, again, in unskilled labour.

I'd probably want to understand what industry has Citizens and PR lined up to work and they are taking on TFW instead.
I don't agree with your premise that companies paying good wages (I'm excluding seasonal, retail, food, etc) are picking TFW even if they have PRs and Citizens lined up. You do understand that the investment in training someone new every 2 years would out weigh 2-4% in vacation pay right?

When it comes to seasonal, retail, food, etc, where most of the TFW end up, there likely isn't a line up of PR and Citizens to do those jobs for $15/hr.

I'm sure some of the TFW that work these jobs may be treated poorly or taken advantage of because of the limitations of the program, but I don't feel that is reason enough to change the program so people can come and then figure something else out if they don't like the job. We should be fining employers, and revoking their ability to use the TFW program if they abuse it, we just need to enforce the laws that we have in place already.

[monkeyman]

'Trudeau says some "bad actors" took advantage of these programs.'
If there's anything Trudeau can't stand, it's 'bad acting'.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Weitz

So you don’t have any companies doing this?

Not sure how you came to that conclusion.

Originally Posted by gasman

I didn't ask for a signed confession, you are the one making the unfounded accusation. I asked for an example and your only answers is "lots".

I kinda thought the sarcasm would be pretty obvious but I will concede that no you absolutely did not ask for it in writing if that’s what you’re looking for.

Yes there are lots of examples. Me not outright naming the companies doesn’t mean that what I’m saying isn’t happening. If you want to call me a liar or go on a ramble accusing me of protecting those companies like another poster did then that’s fine because you doing so also doesn’t make those things true either

As for manufacturing and construction they make up roughly 12% of the TFW program and largely, again, in unskilled labour.

Sure. What does that have to do with supporting your argument that there are absolutely no companies with good long term vacation entitlements hiring TFWs?

I'd probably want to understand what industry has Citizens and PR lined up to work and they are taking on TFW instead.

Well I did name a few industries.

I don't agree with your premise that companies paying good wages (I'm excluding seasonal, retail, food, etc) are picking TFW even if they have PRs and Citizens lined up.

It doesn’t matter if you agree with me. It’s happening.

You do understand that the investment in training someone new every 2 years would out weigh 2-4% in vacation pay right?

Vacation entitlements aren’t the only things that increase.

Just for fun, how much would the training costs be for the specific industries I listed? Are they all the same?

When it comes to seasonal, retail, food, etc, where most of the TFW end up, there likely isn't a line up of PR and Citizens to do those jobs for $15/hr.

That’s not an argument for why it isn’t happening in other industries.

I'm sure some of the TFW that work these jobs may be treated poorly or taken advantage of because of the limitations of the program, but I don't feel that is reason enough to change the program so people can come and then figure something else out if they don't like the job. We should be fining employers, and revoking their ability to use the TFW program if they abuse it, we just need to enforce the laws that we have in place already.

It’s extraordinarily rare for an employer to get fined for abusing citizens and PRs so I’m not sure how helpful these laws we have in place are going to be in protecting TFWs.

[Azure]

From no problem at all, to falling over themselves to deal with the immigration problem.

I will give him credit though for at least somehow changing his braindead policy.

And I do agree that the 'bad actors' he's talking about very much exist, and have manipulated our government for years to get 'cheap labor' and screw over Canadians.

But at some point we are all at fault. How many industries have some form of monopoly and as such too much power is concentrated into the hands of a few? And then we're surprised when these companies further manipulate the government to further push their greed? Canadians really like getting screwed over.

And I don't know what can be honestly done about it. Its part of our culture already to live beholden to our corporate overseers.

[Firebot]

We are still at higher levels of immigration / international students / TFW / asylum seekers than 2019.

Don't let the damage control PR parade fool you. This was always about pushing the Liberal think tank Century Initiative. It should be quite apparent the ramp up after 2019 (which covid threw a wrench in the plan and Liberals played catch up in 2022-2023 exacerbating the visibility) that Liberals knew exactly what they wanted and knew exactly who would benefit.

https://www.centuryinitiative.ca/

Some names and companies who they come from should be familiar to some.

And let's not forget how this came to exist.

https://globalnews.ca/news/3020783/i...riple-by-2100/

The 14-member council was assembled by Finance Minister Bill Morneau to provide “bold” advice on how best to guide Canada’s struggling economy out of its slow-growth rut.

One of their first recommendations, released last week, called for a gradual increase in permanent immigration to 450,000 people a year by 2021 — with a focus on top business talent and international students. That would be a 50-per-cent hike from the current level of about 300,000.
Growth council chair Dominic Barton, the powerful global managing director of consulting firm McKinsey & Co., and Mark Wiseman, a senior managing director for investment management giant BlackRock Inc., are among the founders of a group dedicated to seeing the country responsibly expand its population as a way to help drive its economic potential.

The Century Initiative, a five-year-old effort by well-known Canadians, is focused on seeing the country of 36 million grow to 100 million by 2100.

Without significant policy changes on immigration, the current demographic trajectory has Canada’s population on track to reach 53 million people by the end of the century, the group says on its website. That would place it outside the top 45 nations in population size, it says.

Now even the group is backtracking due to the damage done

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/poli...pulation-goal/

[1991 Canadian]

Originally Posted by Azure

From no problem at all, to falling over themselves to deal with the immigration problem.

I will give him credit though for at least somehow changing his braindead policy.

And I do agree that the 'bad actors' he's talking about very much exist, and have manipulated our government for years to get 'cheap labor' and screw over Canadians.

But at some point we are all at fault. How many industries have some form of monopoly and as such too much power is concentrated into the hands of a few? And then we're surprised when these companies further manipulate the government to further push their greed? Canadians really like getting screwed over.

And I don't know what can be honestly done about it. Its part of our culture already to live beholden to our corporate overseers.

I'm generally with you. The average Canadian, myself included, tends to be hypocritical and quick to blame our "favourite" scapegoat politician/party of choice. There are definitely some times where the Canadian public should be sharing some of the responsibility.

My favourite recent example is Wind Mobile (now Freedom). After years of having the big 3 telecoms and the most expensive cell phone plans in the world, Wind Mobile came onto the scene. Out of spite and price alone they should have had taken a large market share for city dwellers. Even now, Freedom (who took over Wind) are a distant 4th in terms of subscribers. I recognize that rural access + service quality was an issue, but it would be nice if more Canadians put their money where their mouths are.

This said, there are lots of corporate oligopolies that are almost impossible to avoid. I work for a gas turbine power generation facility. After years of corporate consolidation, we are down to 3 gas turbine manufacturers (GE, Siemens, Mitsubishi). Unlike Canadian consumers spurning Wind Mobile, there is no viable 4th choice for my company to work with. And the turbine manufacturers know this.

Guess what this does to new gas turbine prices, annual support contracts, parts, etc?

Guess what this does to downstream consumer/industrial power prices in Canada?

I'd very curious to hear from someone who works in an industry in Canada that has seen more / better competition in the last 20 years.

It is frustrating because I don't think Canada is big enough to hold any of these companies to account. I truly see corporate consolidation/lack of competition as the biggest driver of inflation in the western world. And I'm not seeing a solution from any side on how to actually revert and tackle this.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by Firebot

We are still at higher levels of immigration / international students / TFW / asylum seekers than 2019.

Don't let the damage control PR parade fool you. This was always about pushing the Liberal think tank Century Initiative. It should be quite apparent the ramp up after 2019 (which covid threw a wrench in the plan and Liberals played catch up in 2022-2023 exacerbating the visibility) that Liberals knew exactly what they wanted and knew exactly who would benefit.

https://www.centuryinitiative.ca/

Some names and companies who they come from should be familiar to some.

And let's not forget how this came to exist.

https://globalnews.ca/news/3020783/i...riple-by-2100/




Now even the group is backtracking due to the damage done

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/poli...pulation-goal/

Yeah naw. Their mission statement is literally 100 million by 2100. Pretty ####ing clear in the federal government.

https://www.centuryinitiative.ca/about/who-we-are

Our mission

We advocate for policies and programs that would increase Canada’s population to 100 million by 2100.

The federal government spent a decade weaponizing immigration and smeared anybody even remotely wanting to discuss immigration as bigots and racists. I mean look at this disgusting racist backtracking even now.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1858244349114405285

[Azure]

Originally Posted by 1991 Canadian

I'm generally with you. The average Canadian, myself included, tends to be hypocritical and quick to blame our "favourite" scapegoat politician/party of choice. There are definitely some times where the Canadian public should be sharing some of the responsibility.

My favourite recent example is Wind Mobile (now Freedom). After years of having the big 3 telecoms and the most expensive cell phone plans in the world, Wind Mobile came onto the scene. Out of spite and price alone they should have had taken a large market share for city dwellers. Even now, Freedom (who took over Wind) are a distant 4th in terms of subscribers. I recognize that rural access + service quality was an issue, but it would be nice if more Canadians put their money where their mouths are.

This said, there are lots of corporate oligopolies that are almost impossible to avoid. I work for a gas turbine power generation facility. After years of corporate consolidation, we are down to 3 gas turbine manufacturers (GE, Siemens, Mitsubishi). Unlike Canadian consumers spurning Wind Mobile, there is no viable 4th choice for my company to work with. And the turbine manufacturers know this.

Guess what this does to new gas turbine prices, annual support contracts, parts, etc?

Guess what this does to downstream consumer/industrial power prices in Canada?

I'd very curious to hear from someone who works in an industry in Canada that has seen more / better competition in the last 20 years.

It is frustrating because I don't think Canada is big enough to hold any of these companies to account. I truly see corporate consolidation/lack of competition as the biggest driver of inflation in the western world. And I'm not seeing a solution from any side on how to actually revert and tackle this.

Great point.

I will say its different on the industrial side when it comes to super specialty fields / equipment.

But when it comes to consumer choice, Canadians are pretty terrible at voting with their money. Freedom Mobile is a great example.

I will say those on the food / grocery side its even worse. How many Canadians will support farmers market / locally grown produce / small chain grocery stories / local shops / etc?

Most don't care and just continue shopping at the big stores.

The super rare time I have to go into Superstore, I legit wonder how so many stupid people exist. Just go shop at Costco instead. At least you'd be supporting better wages for Canadians even if you care nothing about anything else.

Same thing exists in almost every other industry.

[SebC]

Imagine that the people we're bringing in are doctors, nurses, carpenters, electricians, teachers etc. They go to work building new hospitals, schools, homes, and care for our aging population. Our cities densify with the influx of construction labour and new cities spring up.

If that's the case, would 100 million Canadians by 2100 be a bad thing? We'd be a bigger nation, more self-sufficient, more influential, more capable of defending ourselves, our interests and our vast arctic territory.

I think the problem with the Century project is implementation. The goal itself seems good? I would hope that we don't, but we're probably going to throw the baby out with the bathwater now.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by 1991 Canadian

My favourite recent example is Wind Mobile (now Freedom). After years of having the big 3 telecoms and the most expensive cell phone plans in the world, Wind Mobile came onto the scene. Out of spite and price alone they should have had taken a large market share for city dwellers. Even now, Freedom (who took over Wind) are a distant 4th in terms of subscribers. I recognize that rural access + service quality was an issue, but it would be nice if more Canadians put their money where their mouths are.

I tried Freedom about five years ago. I live in an urban area in metro Vancouver. The coverage was an absolute farce. I could not make a phone call, ever, and I could not access LTE, ever. I travelled to Calgary once and the coverage/service was awesome. At home in the Lower Mainland, absolute dog poop. I paid a big price to get out of that contract and moved to Koodo. I currently pay less than I ever have for very good service/coverage.

[GGG]

Freedom is fine now, they use Roger’s tours outside of the city, give you free roaming in the US and Mexico and work in the bathroom at work.

The only issue I have is at the edges of the city sometimes you have to force roaming on to get it onto Roger’s tours instead of freedom towers. $35 bucks a month 5G freedom is better than 4G Koodoo for the same price.

They also have $5 plans for unlimited Text messagings and slow data to make things like iMessage work. These are fantastic plans for kids when you start leaving them home alone.