Russia invades Ukraine

[SebC]

Originally Posted by RoadGame

We'd be building them expressly for the purpose of arming our allies and trading for what we need on shorter notice than we're able to buy/build ourselves.

Seems to me like we'd be better off just getting what we need with money than getting shells and using them as an intermediate currency that we are devaluing by increasing supply and that our would be suppliers might not even want.

[RoadGame]

Originally Posted by SebC

Seems to me like we'd be better off just getting what we need with money than getting shells and using them as an intermediate currency that we are devaluing by increasing supply and that our would be suppliers might not even want.

I see your argument. The only reason I don't hold the same view is it takes time to translate money into weapons and as the experience in Ukraine has shown we have a bottleneck at that conversion. In other words, the axis of authoritarians can move faster than we can build arms.

Lots of different weapon systems are needed in LSCO fight, clearly, but given the abysmal state of our defence industry maybe if we picked something relatively simple and broadly useful to specialize in, we could quickly and helpfully close the gap to 2%.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I never thought of it like this. But I think this is a good idea.

Manufacture the biggest stockpile of shells in history.

For this to be effective you have to have the ability to drop those shells on positions yourself.

You need modern artillery, you need modern infantry

[SebC]

Originally Posted by RoadGame

I see your argument. The only reason I don't hold the same view is it takes time to translate money into weapons and as the experience in Ukraine has shown we have a bottleneck at that conversion. In other words, the axis of authoritarians can move faster than we can build arms.

Lots of different weapon systems are needed in LSCO fight, clearly, but given the abysmal state of our defence industry maybe if we picked something relatively simple and broadly useful to specialize in, we could quickly and helpfully close the gap to 2%.

Ah, so stock up on shells now, then shift the product mix to a fighting force over time and with trades. I get you now too and I think I would agree! Great, constructive dialogue. Thanks!

[RoadGame]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

For this to be effective you have to have the ability to drop those shells on positions yourself.

You need modern artillery, you need modern infantry

If we produced NATO-standard 155 couldn't we ship it en masse to Poland, UK, etc.?

I'm assuming we will be incapable of procuring modern artillery in sufficient quantities to send a coherent force. This is like the meth'd out inmate trading cigarettes to the rest of his friends for protection from the rival prison gang.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by RoadGame

If we produced NATO-standard 155 couldn't we ship it en masse to Poland, UK, etc.?

I'm assuming we will be incapable of procuring modern artillery in sufficient quantities to send a coherent force. This is like the meth'd out inmate trading cigarettes to the rest of his friends for protection from the rival prison gang.

If the balloon goes up, everyone will want to keep their kit for themselves.

Canada must have a modern functioning military.

No offence, but this approach has been what Canada has always done. Showed up to the party with no beer and mooch of others.

Having the shells stockpile is great, I'm not against it, but we need the military as well.

For example, you can't have batteries of gunners sitting around Canada pretending to train because you have no kit.

You need the equipment so troops have an in depth knowledge of it and comfort with using it.

[Cheese]

we could build the worlds biggest drone army! We already have trained operators by the thousands sitting in their mothers basements!

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Cheese

we could build the worlds biggest drone army! We already have trained operators by the thousands sitting in their mothers basements!

And China is trying to ban video games. This will be our greatest advantage.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

If the balloon goes up, everyone will want to keep their kit for themselves.

Canada must have a modern functioning military.

No offence, but this approach has been what Canada has always done. Showed up to the party with no beer and mooch of others.

Having the shells stockpile is great, I'm not against it, but we need the military as well.

For example, you can't have batteries of gunners sitting around Canada pretending to train because you have no kit.

You need the equipment so troops have an in depth knowledge of it and comfort with using it.

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. It would be nice to have the biggest stockpile ever of 155mm shells that we could supply all our NATO friends AND have a functioning rapid response military. But that likely won't happen.

So at least having the massive stockpile helps our friends out, and if a massive ground war broke out on our own territory, hopefully our friends supply us with the guns and barrels, and we already have the ammo.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. It would be nice to have the biggest stockpile ever of 155mm shells that we could supply all our NATO friends AND have a functioning rapid response military. But that likely won't happen.

So at least having the massive stockpile helps our friends out, and if a massive ground war broke out on our own territory, hopefully our friends supply us with the guns and barrels, and we already have the ammo.

I'm sorry this is just not a good strategy, IMO.

It does nothing to stop the rot in the military and I don't think it would turn recruitment around.

Nobody wants to join a military with no kit.

You need a well trained & quipped force that is deployable both at home and aboard.

This does not get you that, in fact it could be argued it hinders that aim.

There is no substitute for carrying your own stick.

[CroFlames]

Well I guess in your mind it's best to have neither.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Well I guess in your mind it's best to have neither.

Yes, that's exactly what I said.


FFS.


I've said this numerous times on this site.

Canada needs a well equipped modern army that they can deploy at home and abroad.

I don't think we need all aspects of a modern army. For example, do away with MBTs, have your armour specialize in recce, by force or stealth.

Lean heavily into Mobile Infantry. Frankly in this day and age Light Infantry is a bit daft and any mook can transition to light infantry.

Have a good drone capabilities, especially in a country like Canada with large swaths of land that is empty and difficult to patrol.

Navy, #### can subs. Invest in smaller quick boats that can also double with some shore patrol and SAR work.

Airforce......oh man that is so rotten and I don't now much about air forces, but i reckon some newer heavy lift would be useful, but rotary and fixed wing. Also, potentially some dual purpose sub hunter/SAR capable aircraft would be good.

I think that is more useful than filling warehouses with shells to barter when rounds start flying.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Yes, that's exactly what I said.


FFS.


I've said this numerous times on this site.

Canada needs a well equipped modern army that they can deploy at home and abroad.

I don't think we need all aspects of a modern army. For example, do away with MBTs, have your armour specialize in recce, by force or stealth.

Lean heavily into Mobile Infantry. Frankly in this day and age Light Infantry is a bit daft and any mook can transition to light infantry.

Have a good drone capabilities, especially in a country like Canada with large swaths of land that is empty and difficult to patrol.

Navy, #### can subs. Invest in smaller quick boats that can also double with some shore patrol and SAR work.

Airforce......oh man that is so rotten and I don't now much about air forces, but i reckon some newer heavy lift would be useful, but rotary and fixed wing. Also, potentially some dual purpose sub hunter/SAR capable aircraft would be good.

I think that is more useful than filling warehouses with shells to barter when rounds start flying.

If the past 50 years have showed us anything, you are getting none of those things.

A warehouse full of shells might be the best you can hope for.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

If the past 50 years have showed us anything, you are getting none of those things.

A warehouse full of shells might be the best you can hope for.

That's the spirit that's made this country great.

[RoadGame]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

If the past 50 years have showed us anything, you are getting none of those things.

A warehouse full of shells might be the best you can hope for.

We need to fix the military - experience shows that's at best a long term project.

We are in default on our obligations today and I don't accept (when politicians speak) that the only way to remedy that is the long term solution.

Do both.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by RoadGame

We need to fix the military - experience shows that's at best a long term project.

We are in default on our obligations today and I don't accept (when politicians speak) that the only way to remedy that is the long term solution.

Do both.

I can get onboard with doing both.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by SebC

Why not both? Drone carrier!

For real though I just want drone carrying blimps ok?

[indes]

With all the AI hype, can we create an AI drone that can make an AI drone army? Seems almost too easy...

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Well I guess in your mind it's best to have neither.

WTF.

No, it's just that you came up with the dumbest most nonsensical plan in the history of military strategy. You want to make a bunch of ammo for an army that doesn't exist and isn't equipped to shoot it? What the hell lol? Just hope that our allies don't notice their guys and equipment are going into harm's way while we send them bullets?

It's just so ridiculous.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by indes

With all the AI hype, can we create an AI drone that can make an AI drone army? Seems almost too easy...

The fun part comes when the AI starts hallucinating, as they all eventually do.