Sutter is the problem

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by The Big Chill

The timing is perfect to give Mitch Love a shot. Despite how miserable this season was, this is still a roster that is built to win, and a bounce back season is fairly likely for many of these players. It would be a good scenario for a young coach to walk into. It would also be nice to have a guy who is confident in Wolf as he gets his shot in the NHL.

How do you determine that?

Lindholm proved he is not an elite #1 centre.
Markstrom proved he is not an elite #1 goalie.
There is no elite #1 defenceman.

How is this team built to win?

Putting a rookie head coach into a dressing that just chewed up and shutout Darryl Sutter is not a good spot to put a promising rookie coach in.

You know how you set a promising rookie head coach up for success? Announce a rebuild, tear it down, and allow the coach to grow with the team and build it back up.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

How do you determine that?

Lindholm proved he is not an elite #1 centre.
Markstrom proved he is not an elite #1 goalie.
There is no elite #1 defenceman.

How is this team built to win?

Putting a rookie head coach into a dressing that just chewed up and shutout Darryl Sutter is not a good spot to put a promising rookie coach in.

You know how you set a promising rookie head coach up for success? Announce a rebuild, tear it down, and allow the coach to grow with the team and build it back up.

How do you tear it down and tank if Wolf is legit?

Are you willing to potentially ruin our best prospect for the tank? And what if he's so good that he doesn't allow you to bottom out?

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

How do you tear it down and tank if Wolf is legit?

The team doesn't need to pick 1st overall every year to rebuild.

Yes, picking high would be nice, but it's most important to build draft capital, use those picks in the draft, and establish a young core.

Don't let your vets expire for nothing/sign them to bad contracts.

[activeStick]

I think those who want Tre gone will get their wish, except as part of that transaction, they'll also get to watch how Sutter, getting promoted to the GM role (while staying on as the head coach) plays out over the next 2 years. Careful what you wish for.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by activeStick

I think those who want Tre gone will get their wish, except as part of that transaction, they'll also get to watch how Sutter, getting promoted to the GM role (while staying on as the head coach) plays out over the next 2 years. Careful what you wish for.

I don't think anyone wishing for Treliving to be gone is worried about anyone else taking over. I assume they believe the team is terrible and, at worst, the team will just be a different version of terrible.

And to their credit there is at least some interest in seeing what a different version of terrible looks like.

[Monahammer]

Treliving >> Sutter, but I fully expect this franchise to make the worst decision here.

Then promptly follow it up with an off the board d man in the first round. Probably the kid who's in the dub and projected around 30th. Name escapes me at the moment.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Zarley

Yes - changing the coaches will surely solve the problem.

This is progress, we know what the problem is. What is the problem again?

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Zarley

Yes - changing the coaches will surely solve the problem.

It would solve the Sutter is the problem problem and replace it with X is the problem.

[Zarley]

Get rid of him and bring in JP21 2.0!

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

How do you determine that?

Lindholm proved he is not an elite #1 centre.
Markstrom proved he is not an elite #1 goalie.
There is no elite #1 defenceman.

How is this team built to win?

Putting a rookie head coach into a dressing that just chewed up and shutout Darryl Sutter is not a good spot to put a promising rookie coach in.

You know how you set a promising rookie head coach up for success? Announce a rebuild, tear it down, and allow the coach to grow with the team and build it back up.

You determine things through small sample sizes that is pretty well known. 2 years ago you said that this team had no elite talent. Tkachuk has since had 2 40g/100pt+ seasons. Gaudreau had a 115 point season and Lindholm was a point per game Selke runner up. Markstrom was top 4 in Vezina voting for the 2nd time in 3 seasons.

We get it you want a rebuild you post it all the time. Just think critically for a minute. I do love your emotion if the team is rolling you are all in and when they are not it is rebuild, rebuild, rebuild just begging to become the next Buffalo/Edmonton/Columbus or assuming that somehow this organization is going to get it right and not wander the desert like so many bottom tier markets do when they rebuild.

This Flames team will finish with 91-93pts and currently has the best squad in the AHL where a decent chunk of that success comes from prospects. In addition this organization just handed out 134M of contracts for 2 players starting next year as another newer player enters year 2 of a 7 year $49M pact. Players who have full control of their situation and coming off down years. The team that will finish with 91-93pts lost more than 30 games by a goal and 17 of those came in OT/SO.

They need to look at this team and find out why it didn’t work. In my opinion Sutter wears a lot of this. His refusal to play speedy young players with skill over slow, grinding vets was a mistake. His deployment of Huberdeau was horrible and he did not give him a chance with Lindholm or Toffoli our best goal scorers. Lindholm has more assists this season than last but has always played with an elite playmaker in Calgary be it Tkachuk and/or Gaudreau. After 6 games they never put him and Huby back together.

What makes the most sense for the organization is to make the necessary changes at the coaching level and quite possibly the GM and have someone bring in a coach who will play to the strengths of his players. Is Huberdeau washed or can he be the player he was for the previous 4 seasons where he averaged 1.2ppg? Can a summer of rest and reflection get Kadri back to the player we saw in the early part of the year. A coach who will play the top prospects.

Whoever the GM is needs to make decisions on the several UFA’s next year and consider those pieces the key to a retool. The free agent crop is weak this year so player movement likely increases via trade. Lindholm and Hanifin should be the main pkayers shopped. If Backlund wants out then work with him and move him out. The same for Tanev, Zadorov, Kylington etc. lots of players who can be moved to change the makeup of the team. Stripping it down to the studs and tank it out? Realistically there is no chance in hell that happens and if they tank it is not by choice. This team lost their identity, had no leader, a bunch of new players, and sky high expectations. They failed to reach them and had some guys struggle more than they have in the past. Throw the whole team out and start over? Nah they not well positioned for that and if that was truly a path they wanted to take they missed the boat with the type of trade they made with Tkachuk and Monahan and the deals they signed as the fallout of those trades.

[The Big Chill]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

How do you determine that?

Lindholm proved he is not an elite #1 centre.
Markstrom proved he is not an elite #1 goalie.
There is no elite #1 defenceman.

How is this team built to win?

Putting a rookie head coach into a dressing that just chewed up and shutout Darryl Sutter is not a good spot to put a promising rookie coach in.

You know how you set a promising rookie head coach up for success? Announce a rebuild, tear it down, and allow the coach to grow with the team and build it back up.

We were amongst the worst in the league for shooting percentage and save percentage. There is a decent chance both of those could return to league average and make us a playoff team even if we don’t actually play any better.

[the-rasta-masta]

Originally Posted by Zarley

Get rid of him and bring in JP21 2.0!

Playfair 2.0? No way, fire Darryl, but keep the Sutter train going. We've had Brian, Darryl, Brent, it's time for player/coach Brett Sutter. Or do we let Darryl and Chris switch places?

[Shummy]

I have always been a huge Daryl Sutter fan but at this point its impossible to defend him. Daryl is a big reason we are out of the playoffs and should absolutely be let go.



horrible player management
overplaying the 4th line
his handling of the young guys
all of his "hunches" this year were dead wrong
Putting a 4th line plug to shoot with the season on the line should be a firable offence on its own. Daryl's coaching this year has been absolutely horrendous on so many levels.

Toss in the fact both Kadri and Huberdeau dont like him, not sure how Daryl is behind the bench next year but this team and organization very rarely makes good decisions so who knows

[AustinL_NHL]

Sutter is an ELITE systems coach. His systems singlehandedly allow his teams to stick around every game and usually dominate the opposition 5v5 while allowing minimal defensively.

However, his roster management is head-scratching and frustrating, particularly in regard to the Flames' younger players and running all four lines NO MATTER THE SITUATION, thus hurting his otherwise fantastic on-ice product.

A Sutter-coached team in which he does everything EXCEPT roster management would be the ultimate coaching the NHL has ever seen and I honestly don't even feel ridiculous saying that lol which is why it's so frustrating watching him hurt his own awesome product.

However, all that being said, so many things went horribly wrong this season that Sutter had no control over:

Markstrom being literally even average (and I mean even like a .900 SV% lmao not his .030% drop off from last season from .922 to .892) easily equals Playoffs for the Flames. It's not dramatic to say that he singlehandedly cost the team 10-15+ points this season, and I think that might be selling it short. His GSAA had a 40(!!!) goal swing from last season. What is Sutter supposed to do about that?? If Markstrom even lets in 10 less goals, Flames are comfortably in the Playoffs. Hell, bring back the first version of Markstrom the Flames got (.904 SV%, -4.0 GSAA) and the Flames are comfortably in the Playoffs.

Huberdeau being even an average player this season and the Flames are in the Playoffs. How can we blame Sutter for what is literally the biggest point drop-off in NHL history? He was tried on both sides of his wing & tried with different linemates (spent 50% of his 5v5 time with Kadri and 25% each with Lindholm/Backlund). There are things Sutter could've definitely done better in handling Huberdeau, but at some point Hubey Dubey Doo-nothing needs to get some blame. I swear I have never seen a player consistently miss the net more to one spot (in his case, within a foot left of the net) from the same part of the ice throughout the course of an ENTIRE season. But Huberdeau did. Hell, a 65-point Huberdeau and the Flames are comfortably in the Playoffs. He picked it up towards the end of the season a bit, but too little too late.

Kadri not being a dick post-All-Star break and the Flames are comfortably in the Playoffs. I have never regretted getting a player's jersey more than I have my Blasty Kadri. His play in the final game against Chicago was INEXCUSABLE & PATHETIC. His showing overall since the All-Star break, specifically during this final chase, was the showing of a selfish loser. Not the attitude you're going to win with.

On the other hand with Sutter, I would definitely argue playing guys like Pelletier/Ruzicka/Phillips (& probably even Coronato over this final stretch) over wasted pairs of skates like Lucic & Ritchie and the Flames would've been comfortably in the Playoffs.

Let's also not overlook what was just overall historically bad luck the Flames suffered this season. I'm not even kidding. The statistical anomaly of a season this otherwise amazing team (on paper) suffered deserves a deep dive.

But when we look at the main faults this season, we have to look at the three top-paid players on the team before we look at Sutter.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Sutter is not a elite systems coach, he is a coach who get the most out of a group for a short period of time but this season showed his ways are out of tune with the way the NHL is being played.

If you think it was just bad luck you obviously have not looked at the stats, the high shot volume is just a excuse for a style of play that was terrible for this group of players. All the high danger numbers show that the Flames played a shoot at all costs style that resulted in inflated shooting metrics and a horrific shooting %.

Most elite coaches don't get dummied by rolling 4 lines like they are equals and have the 4th line caught out against the other teams top line on home ice.

The numbers all point to Sutters deployment and style being a pretty big reason for the historic drop off from Huberdeau. When you have the best passer in the NHL you're system is gain the blue line and rip it on net?

Not many players get 115 points and Sutter turned him into a foot soldier.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

If you think it was just bad luck you obviously have not looked at the stats, the high shot volume is just a excuse for a style of play that was terrible for this group of players.

I'm always curious when people say this... What style of play suits the players on this team then?

If your point is correct, shouldn't it be on the GM to bring in players who fit the style that the coach is trying to employ?

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

I'm always curious when people say this... What style of play suits the players on this team then?

If your point is correct, shouldn't it be on the GM to bring in players who fit the style that the coach is trying to employ?

1st in rush shots, 31st in cross ice passes, 19th in slot passes and 17th in rush chances per game.

What does that tell you? A team that gains the offensive zone and start pelting the goalie with low danger shots, and not holding pucks to make cross ice plays, trying to beat a defender 1 on 1.

Huberdeau is a passer, it doesn't help that hes on a line for a big portion of the season with a guy like Kadri is does exactly that gains the zone either fires a shot from the half wall into the crest or skate around like an idiot and turn it over.

Last year the top players either got more rope or just did what they wanted and it worked because they produced, this year we stuck to the system to a T and here we are.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

1st in rush shots, 31st in cross ice passes, 19th in slot passes and 17th in rush chances per game.

What does that tell you? A team that gains the offensive zone and start pelting the goalie with low danger shots, and not holding pucks to make cross ice plays, trying to beat a defender 1 on 1.

Huberdeau is a passer, it doesn't help that hes on a line for a big portion of the season with a guy like Kadri is does exactly that gains the zone either fires a shot from the half wall into the crest or skate around like an idiot and turn it over.

Last year the top players either got more rope or just did what they wanted and it worked because they produced, this year we stuck to the system to a T and here we are.

OK we can debate what you said but that doesn't answer my question at all. What style of play do you think suits this team as constructed?

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

OK we can debate what you said but that doesn't answer my question at all. What style of play do you think suits this team as constructed?

One that utilizes the 115 point player we have to open up the game for him. Add more risk more emphasis on offensive pressure holding pucks and making plays. Shot volume isn't the answer.

Push the pace turn the puck over and lets get up ice in numbers and move the goalie side to side.

Right now its way to structured and Gulutzan like, stifling the creativity.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

I'm always curious when people say this... What style of play suits the players on this team then?

If your point is correct, shouldn't it be on the GM to bring in players who fit the style that the coach is trying to employ?

The players are a bit of a mix right now, is part of the problem. Huberdeau, Lindholm, Mangiapane and Toffoli seem like cycle guys who gain the zone and pass until something opens up. Backlund, Kadri, Dube, Coleman, Duehr, Pelletier are rush guys who don't look as much to pass - get in and make a play to the net.

I think the GM did try and suit Sutter a bit - hence Coleman, Kadri and, to an extent, Toffoli and Lewis (Sutter players). Hubderdeau Treliving acquired basically because he, with Weegar and the other pieces were simply the best return in a limited market. And we all were wowed by it.