Treliving needs to start feeling the heat

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

No, what I'm saying is that both the organization and fanbase collectively need to start thinking differently. It's been 20+ years of "we need more toughness and grit," "we need guys with more character," "we need guys who stand up to goons." It's all I ever hear in this place and overtime.

This. 100% this.

The fanbase and organization are and have always been too focused on Grit, Size, and Character.

It's been driving me crazy the last couple of weeks on CalgaryPuck and the local media. Especially the whole we need more guys like "Tanner Glass" comments.

The last thing this team needs is a guy who has no skill or speed but can punch somebody in the face. We need more speed, and more skill. And if that guy also happens to be a more physical guy then great but the emphasis here should be on speed and skill.

Pittsburgh, Nashville, Chicago (cup winning years), Washington, etc those elite teams are built on speed and skill. The only team that has succeeded as Size and Grit were the LA Kings, and even those teams were 6-8 seeds in the regular season that had their fair share of skill in Doughty, Carter, Kopitar, Muzzin, Voynov, Quick etc.

[oldschoolcalgary]

hoping its in changing in recent years, but drafting more skilled forwards is a must, imo, in today's NHL...

Moar grit and truculence doesn't go far in today's NHL...

Smith and Kanzig were head scratching picks that i really hope they never do again

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Uhhh...
Brodie is much better than the AHL players. Utilized properly he is a two-way defenseman who should pace for 50+ points yearly while setting the tempo. Guys like that are precious.

Hamonic otoh...

I have no problem keeping Brodie but the Flames strength of their prospect pool is their d prospects. If Brodie could land a first in the middle of the first round I'd consider it.

IMO Stone and Brouwer need to go but if Brouwer can't be moved even with retained salary they need to look at Frolik moving

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

This. 100% this.

The fanbase and organization are and have always been too focused on Grit, Size, and Character.

It's been driving me crazy the last couple of weeks on CalgaryPuck and the local media. Especially the whole we need more guys like "Tanner Glass" comments.

The last thing this team needs is a guy who has no skill or speed but can punch somebody in the face. We need more speed, and more skill. And if that guy also happens to be a more physical guy then great but the emphasis here should be on speed and skill.

Pittsburgh, Nashville, Chicago (cup winning years), Washington, etc those elite teams are built on speed and skill. The only team that has succeeded as Size and Grit were the LA Kings, and even those teams were 6-8 seeds in the regular season that had their fair share of skill in Doughty, Carter, Kopitar, Muzzin, Voynov, Quick etc.

Yeah hockey is one of the few sports where fans actually clamor for less talented players because of intangibles. I wasn't a big Feaster fan but I much preferred the type of team he was building which was more speed and skill based. I feel Trelving while a young GM seems to be cut from the Burke/Sutter mold and not as progressive as I hoped.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

The Flames were short of talent and went for the most talented players and did not give a high priority to smarts and character.

The difference between what the Flames did is what the Jets did.

The Flames are close to starting another 5 year re-build.

I'm confused by this. Is the theory that the Jets grew their team by focusing more on smarts and character? And the Flames didn't?
I don't know what you mean by smarts but I don't know if I agree with taht at all.

In fact where they have focused on skill they have done well: Laine, Connor, Ehlers, Schiefele
Where they focused on character it has been less good: Stanley, Roslovic

I don't get your point.

[Torch]

When people talk about grit and character. I think they are talking about players like Tkachuk, Messier, Bergeron, Lindros, Fleury etc. Players that have talent, Heart and grit.
The flames have one guy in the top six, Tkachuk. Backs,Johnny, Frolik, and Monahan are talented but not very gritty. Ferland doesn't count because he's a 3rd line winger on a cup contender. Ferland is Rene Bourque 2.0

[cross16]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I wasn't a big Feaster fan but I much preferred the type of team he was building which was more speed and skill based. I feel Trelving while a young GM seems to be cut from the Burke/Sutter mold and not as progressive as I hoped.

Is it fair to say Treliving doesn't want this too?

I look at the Flames drafts under Treliving, save for 2014 where I would question how much input he had, and see more of an emphasis on speed and skill than any other previous GM. I've also heard him comment a few times this year that they clearly need more skill in their lineup.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

I have no problem keeping Brodie but the Flames strength of their prospect pool is their d prospects. If Brodie could land a first in the middle of the first round I'd consider it.

IMO Stone and Brouwer need to go but if Brouwer can't be moved even with retained salary they need to look at Frolik moving

Maybe I’m wearing homer glasses but I think Brodie could land you a top 6 winger and also a late 1st / early 2nd pick. This is why I think we should ship him out this off season with Andersson coming up next year.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

No, what I'm saying is that both the organization and fanbase collectively need to start thinking differently.

What is the correlation between what the fans think and how management builds a hockey team?

[Itse]

Originally Posted by zamler

What is the correlation between what the fans think and how management builds a hockey team?

Interesting question with no definitive answer, but it wouldn't surprise me if at times it had quite a lot do with it, as managements do tend to do a lot to please fans, since the fans ultimately pay the bills.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

If the Leafs offered Nylander and their 1st (~25thOA) for Dougie I could see Trelivng looking at that. Toronto may decide to keep JVR or sign Kvalchuk and could make the 22 year old RFA available for an upgrade on the blue line.

Flames get a highly skilled right shot forward which is a huge need for the Flames. They could lock him up to a similar cap hit as Dougie with a 6 year term opposed to the 3 left on Hamiltons deal. The Flames also recoup a pick in the first round which is rumoured to be something they are looking to do.

I honestly see Hamitlon as the only player that we could move on the blue line that would come close to adding the type of forward and draft pick the team wants.

I know Hamilton can't turn into Pronger, but can he turn into Hedman? Or is he, for lack of a better term, too stupid?
Really, that is the question for me. If there is upside, you have to keep him (short of a stupid offer). OTOH, if this is as good as it gets and you can sell high, you definitely look at it. I think selling low(est) on Brodie now is a potential error and he doesn't return enough. If you can get almost as much for Hamonic as you gave up for him, I would do that too.
I am just worried that trading Brodie to address the roster issues is the worst of all options, as I think (hope) he can be fixed and you are at risk of selling very low...

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Problem: There was too much early success in the 5 year re-build... This fooled management to thinking they had core players of a SC contender and they paid them as such and went after UFAs to get there quicker. This is year 5 since Iginla and Bouwmeester were traded and according to a 5 year plan all the home grown talent is just about ready to be contenders.

Home Grown talent since the rebuild: Monahan, Gaudreau, Bennett, Tkachuk, Kulak, Jankowski

The Flames were short of talent and went for the most talented players and did not give a high priority to smarts and character.

The difference between what the Flames did is what the Jets did.

The Flames are close to starting another 5 year re-build.

The Flames did not go for the most talented players. Treliving is trying to build a certain type of team rather than collecting a talented group of players. That's why he specifically went after guys like Lazar, Brouwer, Hamonic, Frolik and etc.

I watched 5 minutes of the Jets vs the Preds and I saw more talented in those 5 minutes than what I've seen for the last month from the Flames. Incredible top 6 with guys like Wheeler, Scheifele, Laine, Connor, Ehlers, Little, Perreault and etc. Just stupid depth. I'm incredibly envious and jealous of that organization who just always seems to pick the right players.

For us, you take a couple guys out of our line up and we score 1 goal every game or get shutout.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by troutman

I'd start at the top - show King and Burke the door. I'm 50/50 on keeping Treliving (the Hamonic trade was terrible asset management IMO - could have added a 2nd paring d-man in free agency)...

King's body of work speaks for itself, but he no longer has anything to do with hockey operations, so I see this as a separate issue altogether.

As for Burke, I see his name mentioned numerous times as part of the problem, but this strikes me as somewhat shortsighted given how little we know about his day-to-day involvement with roster decisions and construction. In his present capacity it seems to me that Burke functions primarily as a team figurehead and advisor, but the team itself is Treliving's product.

As for Treliving, I think he was right in the summer to target upgrading defence, and the Harmonic trade was a good way of achieving that goal at a manageable cost. I fundamentally disagree that a better option could have been had via free agency—looking at the list of UFA defensemen signed over the summer leaves me feeling pretty good about having Hamonic on the blue line for another two years @ under $4.0 m.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by cross16

Is it fair to say Treliving doesn't want this too?

I look at the Flames drafts under Treliving, save for 2014 where I would question how much input he had, and see more of an emphasis on speed and skill than any other previous GM. I've also heard him comment a few times this year that they clearly need more skill in their lineup.

Some of his first moves were to draft bigger players like Hunter Smith, sign big guys like Brandon Bollig, Engelland, and let go small but fast guys like Paul Byron. It's pretty clear he didn't share Feaster's vision for better or worse. I don't think he has a strict ideal of how big and strong a player has to be like Darryl Sutter but I haven't seen many early draft picks used on skilled forwards nor has he traded for any forwards of this type. He likes his defensemen and seems to place a value on being tough, physical, and hard to play against which so to me at least it appears he's trying to build his version of the Kings or Ducks. That's not bad but I don't consider those teams real contenders to the cup.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

it appears he's trying to build his version of the Kings or Ducks. That's not bad but I don't consider those teams real contenders to the cup.

Following teams that aren't the best teams is bad.

You either do your own thing, or if you try do what someone else does you try to follow the best.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by zamler

What is the correlation between what the fans think and how management builds a hockey team?

Just look at the things that are posted here or the stuff you hear on overtime. It's just a bunch of variations of "we need more toughness and grit," "we need guys with more character," "we need guys who stand up to goons."

And what do we end up with, a who's who of players with character, toughness and grit over the years. The Chris Dingman's, Rocky Thompson's, the Jason Wiemer's, the Chris Clark's, the Shean Donovan's, the Eric Nystrom's, the Tim Jackman's, the Matt Stajan's, the Troy Brouwer's, the Curtis Lazar's and etc. The list is endless. We've also hired basically every Sutter who all epitomize character, grit and toughness. Not to mention we've drafted for years under this guideline which set this franchise back.

In all that time we've had maybe 1 Hall of Famer in Iggy? When we were winning the Stanley Cup and Presidents Trophies were deep on Hall of Fame talents. The fanbase, the media, as long as I've been a fan, we've been very guilty of never being hard enough on the GMs or the players like other Canadian teams. Instead we've decided to crap on coaches instead which has lead to 14 failed coaches in the last 29 years, an average of 2.07 years per term.

Toronto was very lucky. Their fans and media crapped on Brian Burke all the time and drove him out here and now look at where we are vs where they are; one of the best teams in the league with a highly entertaining team that's near the top in goals and a terrific prospect pool to boot.

Sadly, there's no accountability on Burke, King and co, don't even see a thread. All I see is a fire Gulutzan thread with 250,000 views and he's been here for what, 1.5 years? Yeah, the coaches are the real problem of this franchise, not the 20+ years of the same identical 1st round exits and 9th place finishes we've seen time and time again with whoever at the helm.

[kukkudo]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Just look at the things that are posted here or the stuff you hear on overtime. It's just a bunch of variations of "we need more toughness and grit," "we need guys with more character," "we need guys who stand up to goons."

And what do we end up with, a who's who of players with character, toughness and grit over the years. The Chris Dingman's, Rocky Thompson's, the Jason Wiemer's, the Chris Clark's, the Shean Donovan's, the Eric Nystrom's, the Tim Jackman's, the Matt Stajan's, the Troy Brouwer's, the Curtis Lazar's and etc. The list is endless. We've also hired basically every Sutter who all epitomize character, grit and toughness. Not to mention we've drafted for years under this guideline which set this franchise back.

In all that time we've had maybe 1 Hall of Famer in Iggy? When we were winning the Stanley Cup and Presidents Trophies were deep on Hall of Fame talents. The fanbase, the media, as long as I've been a fan, we've been very guilty of never being hard enough on the GMs or the players like other Canadian teams. Instead we've decided to crap on coaches instead which has lead to 14 failed coaches in the last 29 years, an average of 2.07 years per term.

Toronto was very lucky. Their fans and media crapped on Brian Burke all the time and drove him out here and now look at where we are vs where they are; one of the best teams in the league with a highly entertaining team that's near the top in goals and a terrific prospect pool to boot.

Sadly, there's no accountability on Burke, King and co, don't even see a thread. All I see is a fire Gulutzan thread with 250,000 views and he's been here for what, 1.5 years? Yeah, the coaches are the real problem of this franchise, not the 20+ years of the same identical 1st round exits and 9th place finishes we've seen time and time again with whoever at the helm.

Toronto got Austin Matthews and Mike Babcock take those two out and they probably at the bottom of the pack. If the Flames go out and spend some money on a elite coach and revamp the roster a bit they will be a consistent playoff team.

You can blame all the people but it starts with ownership.

[Manhattanboy]

Those are both good takes.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by kukkudo

Toronto got Austin Matthews and Mike Babcock take those two out and they probably at the bottom of the pack. If the Flames go out and spend some money on a elite coach and revamp the roster a bit they will be a consistent playoff team.

You can blame all the people but it starts with ownership.

Actually, the Maple Leafs have done just fine without Matthews this season. They've won something like a dozen games without him in the lineup. You would think they'd have missed their Franchise Center, but they didn't skip a beat.

Mike Babcock isn't the main reason why this team has turned it around. In fact, he coached the 15-16 Leafs to the worst record in the NHL which was what lead them to Matthews in the first place. When you draft well and build strong depth especially at forward like they have, they're always in games because they score their way out of trouble. They get down by 2 and their dynamic players can get it back.

The Flames go down by 2 and we're done. With this team, all the opposition has to do is shut down the 1st line and we can't win. The Flames only have 3 or 4 wins when the first line doesn't score. The season is almost over, that's just utterly pathetic.

[dino7c]

suck and win the lottery is the general consensus for shrewd team building...

there has to be another way