Russia invades Ukraine

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

What was the plan from countries not in the west? What are they doing to help? Oh ya, aiding Russia and profiting from it.

Yeah, agreed. Though it doesn't mean that what the west is doing is right (even though what "they're doing" is just my opinion and I have zero insight into this!).

Originally Posted by CroFlames

But that doesn't make sense. Why give anything at all then?

Giving Ukraine massive amounts of weapons and money will help them bleed Russia and it makes Western manufacturers tons of money.

I'm guessing they want to supply Ukraine to a minimum extent to prevent Russia from completely winning and taking over Ukraine entirely, which would happen if the West didn't get involved at all.

[FlamesAddiction]

I don't think the Ukraine's Western allies deserve the criticism they get for giving Ukraine just enough to hang in there, but not enough to push them over the top. Escalation of the conflict into one that is global is real threat. It's a threat if Ukraine is completely defeated and a threat if Russia were to be unequivocally defeated. It's a real delicate balance. For me, this war was always about hanging on until something changed in Russia enough that they agreed to end it.

I know some people downplay the threat of nuclear war, but I don't think it is an unrealistic outcome if things play out is a particular way. The number one job of Western leaders is to prevent nuclear war.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Itse

Even for a war, this is definitely a bad one in a way the world hasn't seen since... Korean war? With high casualty rates, big prolonged artillery battles, trench warfare, and of course the new horror of drones. And it's been going on for years.

This is the kind of war that will inevitably leave deep, permanent scars even in those who aren't physically injured. You'd have to be a little stupid or crazy to not be terrified of getting drafted, no matter how much you believe in the righteousness of your cause.

This ####ing War is the thing of nightmares.

The mental damage done to those that survive will be appalling.

People forget that.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I don't think the Ukraine's Western allies deserve the criticism they get for giving Ukraine just enough to hang in there, but not enough to push them over the top. Escalation of the conflict into one that is global is real threat. It's a threat if Ukraine is completely defeated and a threat if Russia were to be unequivocally defeated. It's a real delicate balance. For me, this war was always about hanging on until something changed in Russia enough that they agreed to end it.

I know some people downplay the threat of nuclear war, but I don't think it is an unrealistic outcome if things play out is a particular way. The number one job of Western leaders is to prevent nuclear war.

If it was just a matter of Western choice, I would certainly choose a higher level of support. Lots of room between Ukraine barely hanging on and Ukraine marching on Moscow. Certainly, I'd give them enough to take back Zaporizhzhia and Kherson. And I'd probably want to flip Crimea, Luhansk and Donetsk too. Once they control all their territory you worry about Ukraine taking the offensive to Russia, but the threat of turning off the taps should handle that possibility easily.

Nuclear war is already heavily dissuaded by the West's own nuclear arsenal.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by activeStick

Only my opinion, but this was always the plan of the leaders in the west. There was zero intent on ever doing everything necessary for Ukraine and their brave people. Show support with words, provide just enough equipment and money (but not too much) to hold Russia back from completely overtaking too much Ukrainian territory. Continue this regardless the number of Ukrainian deaths, and suffering of their people until the public opinion begins to turn. Objectives are to fill the coffers of the elite in the game, while bleeding Russia as much and for as long as they can.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. If the elites of the world really wanted to make money then they would be trying to force the downfall of Russia and the end of Putin as quickly as possible. Before he took over Russia was well on the path to a capitalistic democracy, but he's transformed it into a fascist oligarchy that steals as much as they can get from the west while providing as little in return as possible. If Russia loses the war and Putin is removed, either someone else takes charge who might be more amenable to western influence or Russia itself breaks apart into much easier to manage chunks. Either way the elite class would stand to make a lot more money if the war ended tomorrow and post-war recovery could begin

[Cheese]

In the Kursk region Ukrainian forces repelled over 30 separate assaults inflicting significant damage on Russian forces.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1857772691291353268


Destroyed Russian heavy equipment, mainly by remotely installed mines

https://twitter.com/user/status/1857772322846912985


Commentary from President Volodymyr Zelensky to Ukrainian Radio, where he mentioned four types of missiles currently undergoing testing. In general, he says that Ukraine is now one of the strongest and most technologically advanced armies in the world

https://twitter.com/user/status/1857762884668854272


Russian losses per 15/11/24 reported by the Ukrainian general staff

1520 men in 24 hours!

https://twitter.com/user/status/1857315806444441721


Overnight, a Russian Shahed drone attack was repelled.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1857526150794449275


Overnight, dozens of Ukrainian UAVs targeted Krasnodar Krai. The target was the Krymsk military airfield.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1857317342037889080


An airstrike by the 114th Tactical Aviation Brigade using GBU-39 Small Diameter Bombs on a Russian command post

https://twitter.com/user/status/1857460528412766289


Next week, Zelensky will unveil Ukraine's 10-point Internal Stability Plan, aimed at strengthening key sectors like energy, defense, and cultural sovereignty.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1857189139424153639


Norway will fund the production of Ukrainian weapons, following Denmark's model

https://twitter.com/user/status/1857402147333157166


China reportedly supplied weapons to Russia for its war against Ukraine for the first time. EU foreign policy chief Josep Borrell has called for consequences.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1857478935648633044

[Hemi-Cuda]

China sees the writing on the wall with Trump taking power, so I imagine they will be much more direct in their support of Russia. And I imagine they will be much more direct in testing Taiwan's defenses to see what kind of pushback they get from the US now

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

China sees the writing on the wall with Trump taking power, so I imagine they will be much more direct in their support of Russia. And I imagine they will be much more direct in testing Taiwan's defenses to see what kind of pushback they get from the US now

No doubt China is getting really impatient at this point. Before the full scale invasion of Ukraine, China was actually making a lot of inroads in Ukraine. Ukraine is a very resource rich country, especially when it comes to rare Earth minerals that are fueling technology, and China was investing heavily to get a piece of that. I don't think China would have been so supportive of Russia in the early stages if they thought it would drag on like it has.

Trump is probably already negotiating with Russia to get a piece of that as well. The interesting part is where that would leave China. Would he still be happy if they are still in the picture because he seems to genuinely despise China. I think China sees the writing on the wall when Trump comes to power and now it's a race for them to get a conclusion to the conflict that benefits them before Trump takes over. Things have the potential to get hairy even if the war does stop.

[SebC]

I think it's a major mistake for China to support Russia. Piss off the West who you're selling your goods too. Piss of the third world who Ukraine was feeding with its grain. Torch your credibility as the counterweight to colonialism and imperialism. For what? Russia might win this war, but they lost the Cold War already. Why bet on the loser?

[Itse]

Originally Posted by SebC

I think it's a major mistake for China to support Russia. Piss off the West who you're selling your goods too. Piss of the third world who Ukraine was feeding with its grain. Torch your credibility as the counterweight to colonialism and imperialism. For what? Russia might win this war, but they lost the Cold War already. Why bet on the loser?

More details would help define what China has actually done. What's been provided, and what is Russia giving in return?

Is it support, or just selling weapons? If they're selling weapons, at what price, and what weapons? Premium price vs. discount price makes a big difference. Modern stuff vs. old Soviet-style stuff they've been replacing with more modern stuff? Again makes a big difference.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Itse

More details would help define what China has actually done. What's been provided, and what is Russia giving in return?

Is it support, or just selling weapons? If they're selling weapons, at what price, and what weapons? Premium price vs. discount price makes a big difference. Modern stuff vs. old Soviet-style stuff they've been replacing with more modern stuff? Again makes a big difference.

Can Russia really pay them more than the value of the trade they can lose with the West?

[Itse]

Originally Posted by SebC

Can Russia really pay them more than the value of the trade they can lose with the West?

Considering the value of trade they're likely to lose is zero, yes.

[surferguy]

Couldn’t it be argued that China has the west by its giblets right now regarding trade? Isn’t most of our crap built there, I mean how long would it take to shift western manufacturing to a new location? Decades?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by surferguy

Couldn’t it be argued that China has the west by its giblets right now regarding trade? Isn’t most of our crap built there, I mean how long would it take to shift western manufacturing to a new location? Decades?

This is a massive problem that The West has created.

I try to cut China out of purchase I make but it is ####ing near impossible.

This current iteration of China was built thanks to The West.

Hopefully The West can start to pivot away from Authoritarian Regimes like China.

I don’t have much hope.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Hopefully The West can start to pivot away from Authoritarian Regimes like China.

I don’t have much hope.

And pivot towards ..... What that's going to be any different exactly?

[sureLoss]

Biden authorizes Ukraine to use US long range weapons in Russia

https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/17/polit...ets/index.html

The decision to allow use of the Army Tactical Missile Systems, or ATACMS, had been under consideration for months. American officials had been divided on the wisdom of allowing the new capability. Some voiced concern about escalating the war, while others worried about dwindling stockpiles of the weapons.

Ukrainian President Volodomyr Zelensky had been pressing Washington to allow use of the weapons inside Russia, arguing he needed the capability to gain momentum in his war effort.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Biden authorizes Ukraine to use US long range weapons in Russia

https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/17/polit...ets/index.html

By all logic, Russia could go after Nato logistics bringing these weapons into Ukraine. They could go after freighters, planes and truck convoys. There might be a temptation to go after NATO logistics bases on NATO soil to prevent the use of these weapons.



I don't know if Russia has the capability, I still believe that have lots of longer range standoff weapons.



But this is probably going to be a nasty escalation on both sides.


I expect that Ukraine will need to provide NATO with their target lists and give NATO final approval of their use.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

And pivot towards ..... What that's going to be any different exactly?

Manufacturing at how or outsourcing to court is that share similar values

I’m not saying it isn’t a silly dream or unattainable

But it is something to work towards

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

By all logic, Russia could go after Nato logistics bringing these weapons into Ukraine. They could go after freighters, planes and truck convoys. There might be a temptation to go after NATO logistics bases on NATO soil to prevent the use of these weapons.



I don't know if Russia has the capability, I still believe that have lots of longer range standoff weapons.



But this is probably going to be a nasty escalation on both sides.


I expect that Ukraine will need to provide NATO with their target lists and give NATO final approval of their use.

It is worth the risk, appeasement doesn’t work

Strength, is all an ####### like Putin understands. Strength and equal aggression.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

By all logic, Russia could go after Nato logistics bringing these weapons into Ukraine. They could go after freighters, planes and truck convoys. There might be a temptation to go after NATO logistics bases on NATO soil to prevent the use of these weapons.



I don't know if Russia has the capability, I still believe that have lots of longer range standoff weapons.



But this is probably going to be a nasty escalation on both sides.


I expect that Ukraine will need to provide NATO with their target lists and give NATO final approval of their use.

Putin won't do anything that will make it harder for Trump to betray 80 years of holding Russia back from Europe, Russia will likely push real hard to gain more ground within Ukraine but will be very careful to not antagonize the MAGA's

Biden on the other hand is giving Trump a problem, Trump now has to face looking weak if he reverses the decision without an overall peace deal/betrayal