Russia invades Ukraine

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Neither is a good option.

Both produce death and destruction.

It just manifest in different ways.

Rational Evil V Irrational Evil

They are both still ####ing evil

Hmm. I must have missed the thread about China's large-scale invasion of a neighboring country.

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

I disagree that there isn't much difference between China and Russia. The Chinese government have generally implemented policies that they feel are for the greater good of China. Unfortunately, in their eyes this has meant restricting individual rights for the sake of the greater society, sometimes to the point of murder. The Russian government doesn't care about the greater good of Russia. They are more concerned about their (those in power) own self-interest and that they are viewed as important and a force to be reckoned with. It's like a mass-culture inferiority complex.

I don't think China would ultimately do anything that would do lasting harm to their society like starting a world war. Russia absolutely would.

Xi Jinping has definitely made moves in the more Russia direction though. More about supporting his power then the good of the country.

[afc wimbledon]

My sympathies to those posters with a greater stake in this than myself, tonight is a dark night

[Sultan]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

My sympathies to those posters with a greater stake in this than myself, tonight is a dark night

People are closer than i am to the actual conflict, just wanted to say sorry for being an ass to you. That was kind. I can’t even imagine what will happen.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

My sympathies to those posters with a greater stake in this than myself, tonight is a dark night

Yup, pretty much a worst case scenario. Not completely unexpected so I was at least mentally prepared for this. I feel bad for my wife's parents. While they are safe in Poland, they desperately want to return home to Ukraine and kept asking me for updates on the US election and how this will play out if Harris would have won. My wife calling them this morning is not the phone call they wanted.

That drip-feed aid policy of escalation management and strike restrictions, from a UA perspective, looks stupider than ever. Not that it wasn't ever not stupid, but this is one of the domino effects of that policy playing out. The ball is now in the EU's court to take over, but they are as sackless as it comes so I'm not holding out hope.

[burn_this_city]

I'm going to live the delusion it won't be as bad as we're expecting. Biden's escalation management has been a disaster and now its up to Europe to take the lead. Germans might have a new chancellor soon, which will hopefully result in some semblance of leadership.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

That drip-feed aid policy of escalation management and strike restrictions, from a UA perspective, looks stupider than ever. Not that it wasn't ever not stupid, but this is one of the domino effects of that policy playing out. The ball is now in the EU's court to take over, but they are as sackless as it comes so I'm not holding out hope.

But it wasn't just escalation management, it was also related to domestic political concerns for Biden. Beyond the first couple of months of the war, the American public's support for sending arms and aid to Ukraine hasn't been all that strong. And by 2024, only about 1/3rd of the electorate thought that supporting Ukraine helps US national security. In that climate, the US giving up significant amounts of its own military stock was always going to be a non-starter. Unfortunately, the US has become a lot more isolationist in the last decade and Ukraine is feeling the brunt of that.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by opendoor

But it wasn't just escalation management, it was also related to domestic political concerns for Biden. Beyond the first couple of months of the war, the American public's support for sending arms and aid to Ukraine hasn't been all that strong. And by 2024, only about 1/3rd of the electorate thought that supporting Ukraine helps US national security. In that climate, the US giving up significant amounts of its own military stock was always going to be a non-starter. Unfortunately, the US has become a lot more isolationist in the last decade and Ukraine is feeling the brunt of that.

Well...and a lot of Nations are going to have to start being more self-sufficient.

When Teflon Don there says 'America First' he means it. I imagine the flow of arms and materiel from the US is going to start drying up.

[woob]

Originally Posted by Locke

Well...and a lot of Nations are going to have to start being more self-sufficient.

When Teflon Don there says 'America First' he means it. I imagine the flow of arms and materiel from the US is going to start drying up.

Aren't there arms manufacturers in the US benefitting from this? Will they be upset if their golden ticket is invalidated by Trump shutdown arms exports?

*key point - I willingly admit I have no knowledge on the matter.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by woob

Aren't there arms manufacturers in the US benefitting from this? Will they be upset if their golden ticket is invalidated by Trump shutdown arms exports?

*key point - I willingly admit I have no knowledge on the matter.

The one thing we learned during this election is that you can just tell the electorate things in simple terms they will grasp, and they'll love you for it. It may be as simple as the messaging.


For example, "US announces new 60 billion dollar aid package for Ukraine" - the electorate get pissed off.

Alternatively "Trump to increase spending by $60 billion as early as next month to strengthen our military capabilities while disposing of our aging equipement" - electorate get excited.

Both statements mean the same thing - money being spent on US weapons manufacturers.

[Ozy_Flame]

Kyivpost: WSJ: Trump Team Proposes 20-Year Freeze on Ukraine’s NATO Bid in Exchange for Peace

Here we go, Trump's plan to end the war:

- 20-year freeze on Ukraine's NATO membership bid,
- Freezing the current front lines, and establishing a demilitarized zone between Russian-held territories and Ukraine.
- U.S. or U.N. forces would not be involved; instead, European allies like Poland, Germany, Britain, and France would be tasked with monitoring.

And all the while, no restrictions on Russia re-arming and regrouping.

So basically just put everything in stasis, give Russia all the land it occupies, and not let major international organizations provide any security.

[Fuzz]

That sounds a lot like Putin's plan to end the war.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Kyivpost: WSJ: Trump Team Proposes 20-Year Freeze on Ukraine’s NATO Bid in Exchange for Peace

Here we go, Trump's plan to end the war:

- 20-year freeze on Ukraine's NATO membership bid,
- Freezing the current front lines, and establishing a demilitarized zone between Russian-held territories and Ukraine.
- U.S. or U.N. forces would not be involved; instead, European allies like Poland, Germany, Britain, and France would be tasked with monitoring.

And all the while, no restrictions on Russia re-arming and regrouping.

So basically just put everything in stasis, give Russia all the land it occupies, and not let major international organizations provide any security.

Does Ukraine keep their Russian territory?

It's a #### plan

[dissentowner]

It's been over 24 hours since Trump won, I thought he would end this in a day after winning the election?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

It's been over 24 hours since Trump won, I thought he would end this in a day after winning the election?

He did say that while campaigning.

After winning, he said he would settle it before he takes office on January 20th.

Honest question... can he legally do that? Like does being an ex-president or president-elect give him official diplomat status? Because as far as I know, people who aren't sanctioned by a government can't negotiate international deals.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

It's been over 24 hours since Trump won, I thought he would end this in a day after winning the election?

Dude...he hasn't even been inaugurated yet.

Its going to be interesting to see Biden try and climb the steps of the Capitol Building to the swearing-in ceremony.

Do they have one of those electric chairs that go up the stairs?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

He did say that while campaigning.

After winning, he said he would settle it before he takes office on January 20th.

Honest question... can he legally do that? Like does being an ex-president or president-elect give him official diplomat status? Because as far as I know, people who aren't sanctioned by a government can't negotiate international deals.

See there's your problem right there, laws are for other people and it's about time you schmoes worked that out

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Does Ukraine keep their Russian territory?

It's a #### plan

actually invading Kursk looks brilliant now, and this is probably why they did it, you want Kursk back we get Mariupol

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Locke

Dude...he hasn't even been inaugurated yet.

Its going to be interesting to see Biden try and climb the steps of the Capitol Building to the swearing-in ceremony.

Do they have one of those electric chairs that go up the stairs?

Will Trump be sitting on his lap?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Will Trump be sitting on his lap?

You could sell tickets to that.