Russia invades Ukraine

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

If Russia wins and is allowed to annex territory by force, then you might see other countries revert back to pre-WW2 conquest ideologies of annexing territory by force. If you want to avoid having an aggressive Germany (or France, Britain, Italy, Japan, etc...), then you need to stop Russia in their tracks now. Shifting the world order back 100 years, probably does mean the world would be a more aggressive place in general. I am not saying that it is likely any of those countries revert back, but it probably becomes less than zero if the liberal international order of not annexing countries isn't respected.

If someone really is worried about Japan or Germany re-arming, you should be more concerned about what is making that happen. Look at which countries are currently annexing territory and expanding their borders. If Russia wasn't invading Ukraine, and if China wasn't expanding in the South China Sea and threatening Taiwan, we're probably not even talking about Germany or Japan re-arming.

the age of land based empire building in the 18th and 19th century was based on using the land to generate income/population in a pre global economy, the British Empire (ironically) proved you dont need land you need trade, the US and now China ran with this idea, it is Russia's inability to make anything and it's backwardness, pretty much nostalgia for it's old 'empire' that has caused it's expansionist habits.

Germany doesn't need to invade Poland it just needs to dominate it economically which it does, a 58% increase in exports in the last decade

Even China is less of a threat than we assume, their desire to reintegrate Tiawan isnt expansionist empire building in the way Britian conquered India, it is a desire to reunify what it sees as part of its country, beyond Tiawan it just wants to be an economically dominant force in the world like the US, it isnt planning on invading Japan or Australia, that would be ruinous to its balance of trade (of course that in itself is scary to the west)

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

A re-armed Germany & Japan are pretty ####ing low on my concerns list.

I mean ####, China is a huge concern.

I'd say China starting a conflict that could escalate into a World War is far far greater than Japan.

I don't see much difference between China & Russia frankly. Both are appalling governments that care little for their populations.

I'd be happy if both their governments were wiped from the earth.

I disagree that there isn't much difference between China and Russia. The Chinese government have generally implemented policies that they feel are for the greater good of China. Unfortunately, in their eyes this has meant restricting individual rights for the sake of the greater society, sometimes to the point of murder. The Russian government doesn't care about the greater good of Russia. They are more concerned about their (those in power) own self-interest and that they are viewed as important and a force to be reckoned with. It's like a mass-culture inferiority complex.

I don't think China would ultimately do anything that would do lasting harm to their society like starting a world war. Russia absolutely would.

[CroFlames]

China are ultimately a rational actor.

Russia has proven that they are not.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

I disagree that there isn't much difference between China and Russia. The Chinese government have generally implemented policies that they feel are for the greater good of China. Unfortunately, in their eyes this has meant restricting individual rights for the sake of the greater society, sometimes to the point of murder. The Russian government doesn't care about the greater good of Russia. They are more concerned about their (those in power) own self-interest and that they are viewed as important and a force to be reckoned with. It's like a mass-culture inferiority complex.

I don't think China would ultimately do anything that would do lasting harm to their society like starting a world war. Russia absolutely would.

Originally Posted by CroFlames

China are ultimately a rational actor.

Russia has proven that they are not.

We can agree to disagree.

China appear rational, but I'm not sure enacting genocide on a portion of your population is rational

Both Governments are ####ing appalling.

China just makes cheap consumer items for The West.

But China is is evil

[Locke]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

China are ultimately a rational actor.

Russia has proven that they are not.

The main problem with both Nations are effectively the same.

There is too much consolidation of power at the top echelons of Government that allows leaders to become entrenched and essentially do whatever they want.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

We can agree to disagree.

China appear rational, but I'm not sure enacting genocide on a portion of your population is rational

Both Governments are ####ing appalling.

China just makes cheap consumer items for The West.

But China is is evil

China is lawful evil, Russia is chaotic evil. I'll take the former over the latter.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Itse

China is lawful evil, Russia is chaotic evil. I'll take the former over the latter.

I'd rather neither.

[Locke]

So when are we building a wall across the Western Seaboard? We could save some money and build it right at the Rockies and let BC take their chances.

[FlamesAddiction]

Russia is suspected to be involved in a plot to start fires on commercial aircrafts destined to Canada and the U.S. Russian spies are suspected, but it is unclear whether they were acting officially, or were "feral" as they put it. According to investigators anyway.

https://www.wsj.com/world/russia-plo...492cac21096720

It looks like the WSJ full story is behind a paywall, so here is the same story on MSN.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...d=BingNewsSerp

The incendiary devices that ignited in July only narrowly missed being on aircraft used by DHL, the people said. German police who tested replicas of the incendiary devices said that once magnesium ignited it would be difficult to extinguish with the firefighting systems most planes have, people familiar with the German investigation said, and pilots would have been forced to make an emergency landing.

The head of Germany’s internal security agency, Thomas Haldenwang, told the country’s legislators that no one was harmed because a flight was delayed, describing it as a “lucky coincidence.” An airplane could have gone down in flames, he said.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Russia is suspected to be involved in a plot to start fires on commercial aircrafts destined to Canada and the U.S. Russian spies are suspected, but it is unclear whether they were acting officially, or were "feral" as they put it. According to investigators anyway.

https://www.wsj.com/world/russia-plo...492cac21096720

It looks like the WSJ full story is behind a paywall, so here is the same story on MSN.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...d=BingNewsSerp

Lol...if they're banking on flights being 'on time' then this scheme is never going to work.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Russia is suspected to be involved in a plot to start fires on commercial aircrafts destined to Canada and the U.S. Russian spies are suspected, but it is unclear whether they were acting officially, or were "feral" as they put it. According to investigators anyway.

https://www.wsj.com/world/russia-plo...492cac21096720

It looks like the WSJ full story is behind a paywall, so here is the same story on MSN.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...d=BingNewsSerp

They shot down the Malaysian civilian plane without consequence (as did the Iranian government, killing dozens of Canadians).

They clearly have no issues doing this.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

We can agree to disagree.

China appear rational, but I'm not sure enacting genocide on a portion of your population is rational

Both Governments are ####ing appalling.

China just makes cheap consumer items for The West.

But China is is evil

Russia's actions are making the country weaker now and in the future. No matter what, this ends badly for Russia. There is no rational explanation for what they are doing.

China's genocide on minorities is motivated by removing real or perceived dissent. Evil? Yes. Rational? Also yes. They have no interest in making China as a whole weaker or more vulnerable.

[Locke]

NATO should just invade Ukraine themselves, then Russia would have to properly fight NATO.

Problem. Solved.

Locke for President of Earth!

[Huntingwhale]

Actually, the 4D chess play is for Ukraine to attack Poland. NATO romps into Ukraine. Russia goes the F home. Win-win.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Locke

NATO should just invade Ukraine themselves, then Russia would have to properly fight NATO.

Problem. Solved.

Locke for President of Earth!

When I was over seas there legitimately were rumours that we would be sent during the Constitutional Crisis in 1193 (21 September – 4 October 1993).

I mean it was all bunk, but some dudes took is seriously.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Russia's actions are making the country weaker now and in the future. No matter what, this ends badly for Russia. There is no rational explanation for what they are doing.

China's genocide on minorities is motivated by removing real or perceived dissent. Evil? Yes. Rational? Also yes. They have no interest in making China as a whole weaker or more vulnerable.

#### them both

They are both ####ing vile governments

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

#### them both

They are both ####ing vile governments

No one is arguing that.

The discussion was rational vs irrational evil.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

No one is arguing that.

The discussion was rational vs irrational evil.

Neither is a good option.

Both produce death and destruction.

It just manifest in different ways.

Rational Evil V Irrational Evil

They are both still ####ing evil

[Itse]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Neither is a good option.

Both produce death and destruction.

It just manifest in different ways.

Rational Evil V Irrational Evil

They are both still ####ing evil

All superpowers are evil, and have always been. It's still worth it to be aware of the massive differences between them.

[Fuzz]

Wrong thread