The Legend of Sam Bennett

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

He kind of is... Huberdeau and Duclair have been driving play at an elite level all season long. It'll take more than a hyper-productive seven games (with a lot of sky-high percentages) to establish Bennett as a bona fide play-driver when he's playing with two terrific playmakers.

Bennett is having a ton of amazing success so far, but slow your roll if you think the Flames just gave up a 60 or 70-point guy (or even a 40 to 50-point guy). He has a long way to go and he's shown himself before to be a very inconsistent player, even when playing with good linemates.

So you really think it’s a stretch to think that
- a 24 year old
- who put up 25 points regularly in a bottom 6 blender, with about 13 minutes a night and never with consistent linemates
- who led his team in playoff scoring, pretty much the only time he got consistent linemates and played his natural position .

.. could even put up 40-50 points as a 2C, with great linemates, averaging 18 minutes a night, and with time on special teams?

Geez. That’s tough. I mean he got 36 points as a rookie playing with Backs.

His points per 60, underlying stats, a lot of these things were just fine and all that was missing was the belief in the player and the opportunity.

If you want to make an omelette, you need the ingredients. If you give me a stove and a pot and some dog food, I’ll make you some hot dog food.

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by CSharp

I really doubt it's the coaching. Flames are really doing spectacular with Sutter as we speak. The team is still mediocre at best.

I mean prior to Sutter who was only there for a few weeks before Bennett was moved.

Gulutzan, Peters, Ward

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

So you really think it’s a stretch to think that
- a 24 year old
- who put up 25 points regularly in a bottom 6 blender, with about 13 minutes a night and never with consistent linemates
- who led his team in playoff scoring, pretty much the only time he got consistent linemates and played his natural position .

.. could even put up 40-50 points as a 2C, with great linemates, averaging 18 minutes a night, and with time on special teams?

Geez. That’s tough. I mean he got 36 points as a rookie playing with Backs.

His points per 60, underlying stats, a lot of these things were just fine and all that was missing was the belief in the player and the opportunity.

If you want to make an omelette, you need the ingredients. If you give me a stove and a pot and some dog food, I’ll make you some hot dog food.

I don't think it's a stretch he could produce at a 40-50 point level for a season or two... but, even then, he wouldn't be living up to his draft pedigree and I'd still say Calgary made the right call moving him for the return they got.

[8sPOT]

Sam Bennett wanted out, and got it. Both teams got some good assets.

I look forward to when this thread is bumped with info regarding the pick or prospect we received.

I for one am burned out on Sam Bennett talk. He’s just not relevant anymore as a Flames fan.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I don't think it's a stretch he could produce at a 40-50 point level for a season or two... but, even then, he wouldn't be living up to his draft pedigree and I'd still say Calgary made the right call moving him for the return they got.

You’ll be great on the radio, Scorp! They often break out the ‘I’ll need to see it before I’m convinced’. It lends itself to further discussion.

Quick goalpost move from 40-50 pts to draft pedigree. :-)

As of not too long ago here, it was agreed that draft pedigree was way in the past.

But it’s real tough to look right now at
- Tkachuk’s 3 assists in last 10, quitting on the team, being invisible in the playoffs, having to be qualified at 9 M, etc.
- What Bennett does when simply entrusted and given NHL linemates (playoffs here, last bit under Sutter, and now in Florida), pretty much fully squandered

and pat Tre on the back in any way

Even mentioning draft pedigree as back in the conversation makes this look even worse on Treliving

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by 8sPOT

Sam Bennett wanted out, and got it. Both teams got some good assets.

I look forward to when this thread is bumped with info regarding the pick or prospect we received.

I for one am burned out on Sam Bennett talk. He’s just not relevant anymore as a Flames fan.

Good news

Pretty much *any* other thread is for that (talk other that Sam Bennett talk burning you out)

Almost every single one

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I know you did. I am far more skeptical.

Duclair has provided the Panthers with 8.6 goals above replacement this season (according to Evolving-Hockey). Huberdeau, 9.1.

Bennett came into Florida having provided Calgary with zero goals above replacement this year. -4.2 last year. 3 in 2018-19. -9.3 in 2017-18.

What was 23 year old Anthony Duclair's GAR when he was getting 12 minutes a night in Columbus or Chicago? What about when he was on a bad team in Ottawa? Is his GAR independent of playing with Huberdeau or Barkov, unlike Bennett's GAR?

Honest question, because I am not about to pay a patreon fee to look at GAR stats, which I've considered trash since they claimed Oscar Klefbom is the best defenseman in the NHL.

He's in the midst of a ridiculously good stretch in Florida but he's been a poor play-driver for most of his career. I think it's awfully presumptuous to cast him as a Marc Savard-type. I think Dylan Strome is a far better comparison.

I personally think it's awfully presumptuous to disregard the difference between 11 minutes with replacement level players playing your off-wing as when that's not the strength of your game, to 19+ minutes with non-replacement levels playing your natural position.

Calgary may have developed him poorly but I just don't think a consistent top-six forward is there.

I do.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I know you did. I am far more skeptical.

Duclair has provided the Panthers with 8.6 goals above replacement this season (according to Evolving-Hockey). Huberdeau, 9.1.

Bennett came into Florida having provided Calgary with zero goals above replacement this year. -4.2 last year. 3 in 2018-19. -9.3 in 2017-18.

He's in the midst of a ridiculously good stretch in Florida but he's been a poor play-driver for most of his career. I think it's awfully presumptuous to cast him as a Marc Savard-type. I think Dylan Strome is a far better comparison.

Calgary may have developed him poorly but I just don't think a consistent top-six forward is there. I see a great third-line 30 to 35-point guy going forward for Florida.

When the Flames went into the bubble last year pretty much anybody who paid attention and was following the Flames fully expected him to be one of the Flames top players.

In the playoffs the stakes were too high and his contribution too valuable for the coaches to coach him to standstill.

I would venture to say that Bennett's play will not disappoint in Florida's playoff run this season.

Do you see him as an inconsistent player going into the playoffs?

What does evolving hockey say about GAR for his 30 playoff games as a Flame.... Compared to Gio or basically anyone on the Flames during his career as a Flame.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

You’ll be great on the radio, Scorp! They often break out the ‘I’ll need to see it before I’m convinced’. It lends itself to further discussion.

Quick goalpost move from 40-50 pts to draft pedigree. :-)

As of not too long ago here, it was agreed that draft pedigree was way in the past.

But it’s real tough to look right now at
- Tkachuk’s 3 assists in last 10, quitting on the team, being invisible in the playoffs, having to be qualified at 9 M, etc.
- What Bennett does when simply entrusted and given NHL linemates (playoffs here, last bit under Sutter, and now in Florida), pretty much fully squandered

and pat Tre on the back in any way

Even mentioning draft pedigree as back in the conversation makes this look even worse on Treliving

Well what I meant was I don't think he'll be a consistent 40-50 point player going forward. I don't doubt he could ride a wave en route to a couple Dylan Strome-with-Kane-type seasons.

Either way, trades aren't decided by the last 10 games. There's a lot of narratives you're throwing around there with respect to Tkachuk that I also think are relatively unsustainable.

[Ashasx]

I don't know what Bennett is anymore, but it's hard to argue against the idea that there hasn't been some sort of dark cloud over this organization for the last two years that has caused every player not named Lindholm to play far below what we know they are capable of.

I hate it. It's boring. I'm bored.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Well what I meant was I don't think he'll be a consistent 40-50 point player going forward. I don't doubt he could ride a wave en route to a couple Dylan Strome-with-Kane-type seasons.

Either way, trades aren't decided by the last 10 games. There's a lot of narratives you're throwing around there with respect to Tkachuk that I also think are relatively unsustainable.

Sure, that last part is not really saying much. Not just relatively unsustainable, we both know that

We both know Tkachuk will not be a 0.3 point per game player on the whole, and Bennett won’t be a 1.4 point per game player for Florida

We also can be pretty sure Tkachuk won’t be underproducing in the playoffs because he won’t be in the playoffs! (*thanks in part to him being invisible while his teammates are trying to get in the playoffs)


We respectfully can disagree, I don’t see 40-50 points as a high bar that he may hit once or twice. He seems to me to be a coachable player who I think isn’t going to take things for granted.


Hey, let me edit and ask you this.

Right now Tkachuk has 31 points and Bennett 22. How close do you think they are by season end?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I don't know what Bennett is anymore, but it's hard to argue against the idea that there hasn't been some sort of dark cloud over this organization for the last two years that has caused every player not named Lindholm to play far below what we know they are capable of.

I hate it. It's boring. I'm bored.

It does suck that the Flames are just awful.

It’s kind of nice to see other teams and have a little reason to be interested in them, as it turns out they play hockey that’s enjoyable to watch

[tvp2003]

Just my own rambling thoughts: to me one of the biggest issues with Sam was between the ears. Forget for a moment the deployment, line mates, position, etc -- everyone on CP watched him do relatively little during five regular seasons and then seemingly turn it up a notch or three come playoffs. I think everyone can agree on that. You can argue the refs call things differently in the playoffs, but I think that was only a small factor.

From Calgary's perspective, if that same player (PSB, aka Playoff Sam Bennett) showed up consistently (if at all) during the regular season, this is a whole different conversation. But he didn't. Instead we saw a fairly large sample size of lacklustre play, inability to produce, and occasional physicality. Potential contributing factors have been discussed at length already.

But if we put him between Gaudreau and Lindholm, and gave him PP1 and PK opportunities, would that have raised his GAF meter? Perhaps. But I'm not convinced it necessarily would have or that the team would have been better off because of it. In this case I think Sam did need a change of scenery, and now that he's got it plus (i) a coach that is putting him in all situations, and (ii) top six teammates that complement what his skill set is, we're seeing "PSB" show up for Florida.

I'm not yet convinced "PSB" is here to stay full-time -- or that the numbers they are putting up during this current stretch are sustainable -- but I will admit that I was apparently wrong about him being able to play in the top-six at the NHL level. He's doing that right now. For some players they seem to struggle with the mental side of the game, and credit the Panthers for putting him in a situation where he's regained his confidence and can play to his strengths. I think there had to be some maturity from Sam as well, so we'll see where it goes from here. Sucks for the Flames, great for the player.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

It does suck that the Flames are just awful.

It’s kind of nice to see other teams and have a little reason to be interested in them, as it turns out they play hockey that’s enjoyable to watch

I fully expect a 40 goal season where Monahan's wrist problems are no longer an issue when he's traded in the off-season.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I fully expect a 40 goal season where Monahan's wrist problems are no longer an issue when he's traded in the off-season.

Would not surprise me in the least!

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by 8sPOT

Sam Bennett wanted out, and got it. Both teams got some good assets.

I look forward to when this thread is bumped with info regarding the pick or prospect we received.

I for one am burned out on Sam Bennett talk. He’s just not relevant anymore as a Flames fan.

Then what are you guys doing continuing to come into a thread clearly labelled for what it is!!!!

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Then what are you guys doing continuing to come into a thread clearly labelled for what it is!!!!

Being the voices of reason that a player getting 19+ minutes a night on a good team under arguably the greatest coach of this millennium is definitely still a sub 40-point grinder.

[powderjunkie]

I've been wondering about precedents like this where a player has struggled his whole career and then flourished immediately after his first change of scenery. Doesn't have to be a high pick, but the first example I found was 4 OA Andrew Ladd:

He was a 30-35pt pace guy his first 2.5 years in CAR, averaging 12 mins with a lot of <10min nights the year he was traded

He jumped to 50pt pace as soon as he joined CHI, averaging 15min and never playing less than 12. 2G 1A in his first 4 games; it was a pretty steady drip to get his 12P in 20gp.

He was traded at age 22 and kept up that pace (more/less) for 8 seasons.


Blake Wheeler 5OA might be similar, too; though it's hard to say if he really 'struggled' in BOS, or was just depthed out (but still performing well in his role?).

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I've been wondering about precedents like this where a player has struggled his whole career and then flourished immediately after his first change of scenery. Doesn't have to be a high pick, but the first example I found was 4 OA Andrew Ladd:

He was a 30-35pt pace guy his first 2.5 years in CAR, averaging 12 mins with a lot of <10min nights the year he was traded

He jumped to 50pt pace as soon as he joined CHI, averaging 15min and never playing less than 12. 2G 1A in his first 4 games; it was a pretty steady drip to get his 12P in 20gp.

He was traded at age 22 and kept up that pace (more/less) for 8 seasons.


Blake Wheeler 5OA might be similar, too; though it's hard to say if he really 'struggled' in BOS, or was just depthed out (but still performing well in his role?).

Try Kyle Turris, who Brad Treliving might be familiar with

[dino7c]

I think Bennett's biggest obstical to putting up huge numbers will be staying healthy playing the style he needs to play to be effective.