How I have longed for the cone of silence I once bemoaned.
Is it via the cone of silence that we have heard that Burke has asked for permission to speak with Nieuwendyk and Benning?
I've heard it before from comments made on tv by Dreger, McKenzie, Shannon (and no, I don't tape FAN960, HC at Noon and TSN in the morning with Mike Richards so I can catalogue comments and post transcripts as my supporting info) that the Feaster regime was tight with info and that speculation regarding the Flames was driven from outside the organization (ie. loose lips on other teams).
No, I can't provide a link, but anyone is welcome to tweet some of those listed and see what they have to say about the Flames.
Is it via the cone of silence that we have heard that Burke has asked for permission to speak with Nieuwendyk and Benning?
I've heard it before from comments made on tv by Dreger, McKenzie, Shannon (and no, I don't tape FAN960, HC at Noon and TSN in the morning with Mike Richards so I can catalogue comments and post transcripts as my supporting info) that the Feaster regime was tight with info and that speculation regarding the Flames was driven from outside the organization (ie. loose lips on other teams).
No, I can't provide a link, but anyone is welcome to tweet some of those listed and see what they have to say about the Flames.
Not sure why my single line post triggered such a defensive response, but the point is that the rampant speculation and lack of clear consensus regarding what the Flames are currently up to is a stark--and, to me, refreshing--change from the constant flow of leaks under the previous regime. The speculation about Benning and Nieuwendyk (from Friedman and Sportsnet, respectively) has been contradicted by McKenzie. The original reports may turn out to be true, but there is enough uncertainty at this point to reasonably conclude that nobody actually knows anything. See my previous post.
I don't recall a single report from any of those you listed about Feaster being tight with info--Sutter, yes. Feaster, no--though I'd welcome an actual citation.
Last edited by liamenator; 12-18-2013 at 07:54 AM.
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2011
1) Baertschi (absolute best player at 13)
2) Granlund (looking good so far, will probably lead the heat in scoring)
4) Gaudreau (best and most exciting player in the NCAA...home friken run)
6) Brossoit (good enough to get us Smid)
2012
1) Jankowski and Sieloff for the #14 pick (Girgensons) jurys out but could still be the right move.
3) Gillies (best goalie in the NCAA. probably another home run)
4) Kulak (ppg dman who's 2nd in scoring for the Giants)
5) Culkin ( big great skating Dman whos 3rd in scoring for the Remparts)
2013
1) Monahan (no comment needed}
1) Poirier (3rd in scoring in the Q, Shinkaruk who?)
1) Klimchuk (who knows but looks good so far)
3) Kanzig (not sure, but is a beast)
Burke:
2010
1) traded pick for Kessel (Seguin, future superstar who has more points than Kessel this year at age 21)
2) Ross (looks like a dud LW, echl/ahl player with 7 points)
3) McKegg (soft 10 point AHL'er)
3) Olden (overager "21" still in junior)
4) Granberg (meh soft Dman with 2 points for the marlies)
2011
1) traded pick for Kessel (Hamilton) regular on the Bruins blueline
1) Biggs (looking like a brutal pick, 3 points for the Marlies)
3) Leivo (jurys out, 2 points for the leafs, back in the AHL)
4) Nilsson (dud?)
5) Cameranesi (small center in college, 9 points...dud)
2012
1) Rielly (good pick but 5th overall is hard to make a mistake)
2) Finn (looks ok,still in junior)
3) traded
4) traded
5) Toninato (college but probably a dud.)
I would take Feaster at the draft table 10 times out of 10.
Well that's a little scary.
Here's hoping Burke understands his weakness in drafting and brings in a GM with a solid drafting record that can relay on Burke's strength in trades. Could make for a very well rounded front office.
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Originally Posted by Temporary_User
Reading the thread title, I simply assumed that Jpold and Jroc came out of the closet and have a love baby together.
I won't pretend I know anything about any of the candidates, but after doing a bit of research, Benning, Futa and Fenton sound like the best options. The fact that Burke kept bringing up the fact that you can't just pry GM's out of their current teams like you used to suggests to me that he has his sights set on someone that's currently "attached" such as Futa or Benning....guess time will tell.
Agreed. Darryl Sutter wrecked the Flames much more than Feaster did IMO.
Was Feaster perfect? No, far from it......but he spent most of his time as GM of the Flames trying to fix many of the problems Darryl left behind.
Oh Please. When Darryl Sutter was named GM the Flames hadn't made the playoffs in 7 seasons and were often playing in front of crowds less than 11,000. Without Sutter coming on board we could possibly be talking about the Portland Flames, and their AHL affiliate, the Calgary Heat.
He saved the franchise. Made them respectable again. Sure he lost his mind for one full calendar year. But don't forget, nobody was criticizing the Jokinen trade when it happened. In fact, many CPers were calling for Jokinen. I have no idea what he was thinking for the Phaneuf trade, or trading Jokinen for Kotalik. But all in all, he did a great job. Remember how much fun we all had in the spring of 2004? None of that happens without Sutter.
And the argument that Jay Feaster is a much better drafter then Sutter. Gaudreau, Gillies, Baertschi, Jankowski etc, etc. Sure, those guys sound great. But how about we wait until at least a couple of these guys are in the NHL contributing before we declare Feaster a great drafter. Did you know that the 29 other teams also have great looking prospects? Sean Monahan? Great pick. But don't forget how the Flames got that pick. Because last years team was terrible. Not one day in the top 8. Not one.
Jay Feaster didn't even seem to understand the fundamentals of how to build a team. Too many LW. Not enough centres. 8 of the top 9 D shoot left. The ROR fiasco made me embarrassed to be a Flames fan.
The time for blaming Darryl Sutter for the Flames' problems was over a long time ago. This is Jay Feasters team. And the team is lousy.
Last edited by Mister Yamoto; 12-18-2013 at 11:24 AM.
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Oh Please. When Darryl Sutter was named GM the Flames hadn't made the playoffs in 7 seasons and were often playing in front of crowds less than 11,000. Without Sutter coming on board we could possibly be talking about the Portland Flames, and their AHL affiliate, the Calgary Heat.
He saved the franchise. Made them respectable again. Sure he lost his mind for one full calendar year. But don't forget, nobody was criticizing the Jokinen trade when it happened. In fact, many CPers were calling for Jokinen. I have no idea what he was thinking for the Phaneuf trade, or trading Jokinen for Kotalik. But all in all, he did a great job. Remember how much fun we all had in the spring of 2004? None of that happens without Sutter.
And the argument that Jay Feaster is a much better drafter then Sutter. Gaudreau, Gillies, Baertschi, Jankowski etc, etc. Sure, those guys sound great. But how about we wait until at least a couple of these guys are in the NHL contributing. Sean Monahan? Great pick. But don't forget how the Flames got that pick. Because last years team was terrible. Not one day in the top 8. Not one.
Jay Feaster didn't even seem to understand the fundamentals of how to build a team. Too many LW. Not enough centres. 8 of the top 9 D shoot left. The ROR fiasco made me embarrassed to be a Flames fan.
The time for blaming Darryl Sutter for the Flames' problems was over a long time ago. This is Jay Feasters team. And the team is lousy.
Yes Darryl Sutter did a lot of good here at the beginning, but that doesn't change the fact that he left this franchise in a complete and utter mess.
An aging core of players nearing the end of their careers.
No elite talent on the roster in the 20-27 year old range to replace them.
Pretty much nothing in the prospect cupboard on it's way.
Right up against the cap, with no contract wiggle room.
Again, it was a complete and utter mess he left behind, there really is no way around that fact.....and hating on Feaster isn't going to change it.
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Is it possible that the reason why the Flames are where they are is because Jay Feaster and post 2009 Darryl Sutter were both lousy GMs? Maybe we are both right.....or wrong.
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So while it was an obvious sign that was the time to start rebuilding, it wasn't crippling. What was crippling was waiting another 3 years to do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy
No elite talent on the roster in the 20-27 year old range to replace them.
Again, while I agree here, what you say here is no true. Both Gio and Bouw were 26. Glencross was 27.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy
Pretty much nothing in the prospect cupboard on it's way.
Right up against the cap, with no contract wiggle room.
Backlund, Brodie, Erixon. What killed us were crappy draft picks from 2005-2007.... you see essentially a 2 year window missing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy
Right up against the cap, with no contract wiggle room.
Agreed here as well..... though I hardly think its genius to sacrifice a 2nd to move Kotalik, or putting Hagman on waivers. We can see what really killed us here, asset wise / payroll wise / cap wise, was the Phaneuf trade and the Olli trade. And the following 3 years after we were hard up to the cap with new contracts and NTC/NMC to Babchuk, Tanguay, Sarich, Wideman and almost got completely screwed with Richards/Smyth.
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Is it possible that the reason why the Flames are where they are is because Jay Feaster and post 2009 Darryl Sutter were both lousy GMs? Maybe we are both right.....or wrong.
I'm not really defending Feaster.....well, in a way maybe I am a little bit. I think when Jay took over he was still stuck in a "win with Iggy" mode that was being driven from the very top of this organization.
Pretty much an impossible task given the state of the franchise at the time.
He tried, failed and did some more damage in the process until finally last year IMO the mantra from above finally changed. That's just my opinion however.
At least now though, we have an abundance of cap space, plenty of contract space, a better prospect pool (still to be determined, but looks better on paper) and very few "bad" contracts.
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Jeff Gorton [current AGM for NYR] -- I did a search but haven't seen him mentioned on this forum yet.
He was interim general manager for the Boston Bruins for less than four months in 2006. During that short span he:
1. Signed Zdeno Chara, which the Fan 960 discussed this week as possibly the best UFA signing in NHL history
2. Traded Andrew Raycroft for Tuukka Rask.
Seems like a couple shrewd moves for a guy who has only had a cup of coffee in the driver's seat of an NHL team.
According to this article he played a large part in the 2006 draft that built the Bruins as well (Marchand, Lucic, Kessel) and also signed Savard that same off-season which was another good UFA signing.
According to this article he played a large part in the 2006 draft that built the Bruins as well (Marchand, Lucic, Kessel) and also signed Savard that same off-season which was another good UFA signing.
That really has to be the most effective GM spell.
Was only GM from March 25th to July 15th.
Signed Chara and Savard.
Traded Raycroft for Rask.
Drafted Kessel, Lucic, and Marchand.
Also has a decent but not great drafting record in New York.
2008: Del Zotto, Stepan,
2009: Kreider, Horak
2010: McIlrath (although taking him over Fowler was really bad), Thomas
2011: JT Miller
Nice body of work.
I thought I heard somewhere recently that Sather might not get renewed after this season. I also thought I heard that his AGM does a lot of the GM duties, and has for a while now because Sather's health isn't the greatest?
Sounds like this Jeff Gorton might be set to take over GM duties for Sather after this season?
Here's hoping Burke understands his weakness in drafting and brings in a GM with a solid drafting record that can relay on Burke's strength in trades. Could make for a very well rounded front office.
I think people sometimes gets too confused with who is a "GM good at drafting" ..... at best, a GM will only really have say in the 1st round. 99% of the work is done by scouts. The only thing a "good drafting" GM can do is surround himself with good people, likely from connections and knowing who knows what they are talking about.
So the question here isn't Burke's draft history with Feaster's ..... its going to be if Burke lets go of any of the good scouts, or if Burke has the connections to bring in better scouts.
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Oh Please. When Darryl Sutter was named GM the Flames hadn't made the playoffs in 7 seasons and were often playing in front of crowds less than 11,000. Without Sutter coming on board we could possibly be talking about the Portland Flames, and their AHL affiliate, the Calgary Heat.
He saved the franchise.
Did he save the Oilers and the Senators as well? They were both on the verge of relocating. Or could it be the rise of the Canadian dollar that saved all the small-market Canadian teams?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto
Made them respectable again. Sure he lost his mind for one full calendar year.
It wasn't one calendar year of madness that drive this team into the ditch. It was years of bad drafting and development, no plan to replace aging core players, and bad cap management.
Fans get too hung up on trades. In my opinion, the main jobs of an NHL GM, in order of importance, are:
Drafting and development
Cap management
Trades
Sutter was terrible at the first two, mixed on the last. And the best GMs make few trades, because they don't have to.
The mess Sutter left the team in - and I said this before he was even fired - would take 5-6 years to clean up. And that's once upper management and ownership got on board with a rebuild. They didn't do that until less than a calendar year ago. We have a long rebuild ahead. We have to draft an entirely new core, because we didn't manage our assets wisely enough to build one any other way.
Feaster took on the GM job for a franchise that was widely regarded as having the worst prospects going forward of any team in the NHL. He was a janitor, brought in to clean up the garbage contracts, move out the veterans, and then get turfed. He was never a long-term solution. But he's also not responsible for the long-term fortunes of the team. That lies with the GM who made no moves with the future in mind, and ownership who let him do it because they were in love with their aging franchise player.
Last edited by CliffFletcher; 12-18-2013 at 01:19 PM.
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I'm curious as to what the perception might be amongst possible GM candidates of how much hands on Burke still plans on having when it comes to GM duties. Might dissuade some possible candidates if it appears (or is bluntly stated..) that Burke still plans on having a say in alot of the day-to-day GM tasks. As previously mentioned, could narrow the field to people Burke has worked with before in some capacity.
Not sure if there's a discussion buried somewhere in here already regarding this but just a thought. Not sure how I feel if this is the case.
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I don't think it's a little scary. It actually scares the crap out of me. As a GM, Burke has a horrible record when it comes to drafting - not just in Toronto as T@T showed, but also in Vancouver and Anaheim.
VANCOUVER:
Spoiler!
1999
1st round, 2nd overall - F Daniel Sedin
1st round, 3rd overall - F Henrik Sedin
3rd round, 69th overall - D Rene Vydareny
5th round, 129th overall - F Ryan Thorpe
6th round, 172th overall - D Josh Reed
7th round, 189th overall - G Kevin Swanson
8th round, 218th overall - D Markus Kankaanpera
9th round, 271th overall - D Darrell Hay
outside of the Sedins, not a single NHL game among the other picks.
2000
1st round, 23th overall - F Nathan Smith
3rd round, 71th overall - F Thatcher Bell
3rd round, 93th overall - D Tim Branham
5th round, 144th overall - F Pavel Duma
7th round, 208th overall - F Brandon Reid
8th round, 241th overall - F Nathan Barrett
9th round, 272th overall - F Tim Smith
just a horrible, horrible draft. Nathan Smith and Brandon Reid have a combined 39 NHL games to their names, the others didn't make it ... essentially the Canucks blew a whole draft class.
2001
16 1 R.J. Umberger
66 3 Fedor Fedorov
114 4 Evgeny Gladskikh
151 5 Kevin Bieksa
212 7 Jason King
245 8 Konstantin Mikhailov
The Canucks' best draft under Burke as a GM, as four players made it to the NHL. Umberger and Bieksa became good NHLers, King played 59 games and Fedorov got 18.
2002
2nd round, 49th overall - D Kirill Koltsov
2nd round, 55th overall - D Denis Grot
3rd round, 68th overall - D Brett Skinner
3rd round, 83rd overall - G Lukas Mensator
4th round, 114th overall - F John Laliberte
5th round, 151st overall - G Rob McVicar
7th round, 214th overall - F Marc-Andre Roy
7th round, 223th overall - F Ilya Krikunov
8th round, 247th overall - G Matt Violin
9th round, 277th overall - F Thomas Nussli
9th round, 278th overall - F Matt Gens
absolutely horrible - another complete draft class lost for Vancouver. Skinner played 11 games, McVicar a single game - and that's it. Nothing else. Zero. Nada.
2003
1st round, 23rd round - F Ryan Kesler
2nd round, 60th overall - F Marc-Andre Bernier
4th round, 111st overall - F Brandon Nolan
4th round, 128th overall - F Ty Morris
5th round, 160th overall - F Nicklas Danielsson
6th round, 190th overall - D Chad Brownlee
7th round, 222nd overall - F Francois-Pierre Guenette
8th round, 252nd overall - F Sergei Topol
8th round, 254th overall - D Nathan McIver
9th round, 285th overall - D Matthew Hansen
again, pretty bad. Kesler obviously turned out great, but that's about it. Nolan played 6 games in the NHL and McIver has played 36 as an injury callup. Nobody else made it.
So that's 42 draft picks, of which 13 have played at least one game in the NHL. Five of those players have played more than 100 NHL games - four of those were 1st round picks. One 1st round pick and three 2nd round picks were complete busts.
ANAHEIM:
Spoiler!
2006
1st round, 19th overall - D Mark Mitera
2nd round, 38th overall - F Bryce Swan
3rd round, 83rd overall - D John de Gray
4th round, 112nd overall - F Matt Beleskey
6th round, 172nd overall - F Petteri Wirtanen
horrible. It's the last two picks that made it to the NHL - Beleskey turned out well as a utility player for the Ducks, Wirtanen got a 3 game stint five years ago. Their early picks in this one were total busts.
2007
1st round, 19th overall - F Logan MacMillan
2nd round, 42nd overall - F Eric Tangradi
3rd round, 63rd overall - F Maxime Macenauer
4th round, 92nd overall - F Justin Vaive
4th round, 93rd overall - D Steven Kampfer
4th round, 98th overall - G Sebastian Stefaniszin
4th round, 121st overall - G Mattias Modig
5th round, 151st overall - F Brett Morrison
another 1st round bust. Tangradi, Macenauer and Kampfer have all played in the NHL, but not as regulars, and all three of them are already with their third NHL organization right now. The others didn't make the NHL.
2008
1st round, 17th overall - D Jake Gardiner
2nd round, 35th overall - F Nicolas Deschamps
2nd round, 39th overall - F Eric O'Dell
2nd round, 43rd overall - D Justin Schultz
3rd round, 71st overall - F Josh Brittain
3rd round, 83rd overall - G Marco Cousineau
3rd round, 85th overall - F Brandon McMillan
4th round, 113th overall - D Ryan Hegarty
5th round, 143rd overall - D Stefan Warg
7th round, 208th overall - D Nick Pryor
probably his best draft in Anaheim. Gardiner and Schultz have made it as full-time NHLers - obviously not with the Ducks though. McMillan played 91 with the Ducks, but has faded and is in the AHL now. O'Dell only recently played his first NHL game with the Jets. The others didn't make it.
So that's 23 draft picks, of which 9 have played at least one game in the NHL. Only three of those players have played more than 100 NHL games. Two 1st round picks and two 2nd round picks were complete busts.
I have no idea how much of this is to blame on Burke, but it's a pretty bad draft record. Maybe it's down to scouts, but the fact that Burke was the GM of three different teams and the drafting of all three teams looks bad, you have to think that he's a big part of that. If Feaster gets blamed for the Jankowski risk, then what can we say about Burke? Nathan Smith. Mark Mitera. Logan MacMillan. Tyler Biggs. Plus all the 2nd round picks that never even got a sniff of the NHL.
It scares the crap out of me and I just hope that there's a new GM with a strong draft record in place soon.
Last edited by devo22; 12-18-2013 at 12:36 PM.
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