As mentioned many many times...the extremist Muslim likes to blow people up, themselves included, for the glory of god and multiple virgins.
The western world does not hear or see the "moderate Muslims" up in arms, or writing the editors of the local papers, lamenting the poor decisions of their compatriots. The extremist Christian is simply a festering pussing sore on society, typical to the Westboro Baptists. We look at them and feel sorry for their ignorance.
Time for the moderates to stand up and say enough is enough to those that want to lead them astray.
Good points!
If you want more proof for your thesis, you should check out the identities of the people who are tipping off local and federal agencies to thwart certain plans.
Please report back with what you find. If it reveals a touch of ignorance, don't worry: We won't judge you as you have others.
Its great to say that anyone who is half educated about Islam knows that suicide bombing is against their religion, yet we do see a willingness in liberal democracies by home grown terrorists because they've been told by their Iman that its alright.
Seriously!
If only those crazy muslims had a war at their disposal where they could sign up with a contracting company like Xe / Blackwater led by an owner who views himself as a Christian crusader and comfortably employs people who mesh with this divine vision of being able to lay hajjis out on cardboard.
Good point.
No women would believe it was ordered by God that she sit at a table separate from her husband, she would simply believe that her husband was conferred with the authority to create such a demarcation.
Now that's a hell of a claim, and obviously a wrong one. How do you know that? Millions of women follow these rules, but none of them actually believe them?
One compelling defense of wearing the burqa comes from Muslim women who actually wear the thing. "I don't wear it because I am forced, I wear it because I believe this is what God wants me to do". Are they lying? The same justification would certainly apply to the dining arrangements as well. "I don't eat here because I'm forced, I do it because this is how God wants me to eat dinner".
Quote:
Originally Posted by something
I believe the argument you have invoked is that of cultural relativism, the notion that we cannot judge aspects of a culture on the basis that we cannot, as an outsider, understand the purpose or necessity of such specific traditions or customs.
Wrong again. I can judge this aspect of their culture. I think it's crazy,and they should stop doing it. That doesn't give me any right to say "nah, you can't do that" to a man and woman who, for whatever reason, want to eat dinner in different rooms.
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Last edited by RougeUnderoos; 12-14-2010 at 05:57 PM.
Move somewhere new - take on their traditions. Want to keep your culture of lamentable and despicable morality? Stay home.
It's funny, when foreign people move here they're immigrants and should wholly adopt a North American lifestyle; but when white westerners move somewhere else they're "ex-pats" and no one bats an eye when they don't take on the customs and traditions of the country they're living in.
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If you want more proof for your thesis, you should check out the identities of the people who are tipping off local and federal agencies to thwart certain plans.
Please report back with what you find. If it reveals a touch of ignorance, don't worry: We won't judge you as you have others.
Excuse my ignorance "doctor"...you apparently have all the answers and I should just kowtow to your wishes.
If you actually read what I wrote...
As mentioned many many times...the extremist Muslim likes to blow people up, themselves included, for the glory of god and multiple virgins. The western world does not hear or see the "moderate Muslims" up in arms, or writing the editors of the local papers, lamenting the poor decisions of their compatriots. The extremist Christian is simply a festering pussing sore on society, typical to the Westboro Baptists. We look at them and feel sorry for their ignorance.
Time for the moderates to stand up and say enough is enough to those that want to lead them astray.
You would have noticed I was talking about the fact that Muslims do not speak out about the heretics within their confines. Im glad that a few turn in some bad guys behind the scenes...we just dont hear your Imams and converts talking out loud about the ignorance of the few.
Is that due to fear? Or is that due to ignorance on your behalf?
For a guy that promotes himself as a PH.D with all do respect there are times that you come across as a 12 year old.
Are you incapable of having a civilized discussion?
Your comments and concerns regarding home grown radicals corrupted in muslims schools, etc... are primarily driven by what you're looking for and are implicitly interested in observing. When you don't see what you want to see and don't really look for it, then the outrage self-perpetuates.
The point about Prince is that a figure recruiting religiously like-minded zealots to go and wipe out people of other faiths is offensive and repugnant regardless of the side you sit on. But when the person is in a "muslim community" here in the west, they're home grown terrorists. When the person is a christian born in the US, we call him a CEO and an entrepreneur who moves to Dubai out of the blue (note the delicious irony on many levels).
Therefore, it's no secret to me why one of these examples offends and draws thread upon thread, and the other doesn't. What I see over and over in these threads are examples of people who claim that "X isn't doing anything about situation Y" simply because what they want to see isn't falling into their lap, or they're not looking for the answer prior to engaging in their narrative. This was exemplified by your comment in the recent wikileaks thread saying "Call me when we see dissidents chaining themslelves to coal plants or crying over dead ducks in polluted lakes there or in russia call me"... to which HPLovecraft replied 12 minutes later with copious links. Did all those world events happen in the intervening 12 minutes? Or did you outrage first and ask questions later?
This thread is full of similar narratives, many of which can be easily debunked by the posters themselves if they simply sit back and examine what they're writing.
===
And I'm sorry that you think an internet alias is a means to promote and/or project authority. I would have thought that people would realize internet aliases are about as meaningless as they come, CaptainCrunch.
You would have noticed I was talking about the fact that Muslims do not speak out about the heretics within their confines. Im glad that a few turn in some bad guys behind the scenes...we just dont hear your Imams and converts talking out loud about the ignorance of the few.
Is that due to fear? Or is that due to ignorance on your behalf?
If the "muslims" are not speaking out about the heretics within their confines, then how are US federal authorities cooperating with muslim communities to bust 7 out of the last 10 plots?
And regards to the Imams*, where did you go to listen to them? How many Imams have you listened to? Do you have a reasonable sampling to reliably state that you don't hear them say these things because, in fact, they're not saying such things? Or is it simply because you have not heard them?
Perhaps it is ignorance on my part not to know that the majority of muslims are not speaking out about the heretics, or that Imams are not talking out loud about the ignorance of the few. But with over 1 billion muslims in this world and presumably many many thousands of mosques, I'm impressed that you have been able to survey the conversations engaged in, and the sermons heard by, the majority of them.
* I'm not sure why you refer to it in the possessive for me? I'm agnostic and couldn't care less who is of what religion.
Your comments and concerns regarding home grown radicals corrupted in muslims schools, etc... are primarily driven by what you're looking for and are implicitly interested in observing. When you don't see what you want to see and don't really look for it, then the outrage self-perpetuates.
In the absence of anything else one of the primary and growing stories over the last year is based around home grown terrorists. The Toronto 18, the New York attempts, the bombing in Sweden, even going back further, the London Subway Bombings all have the common thread that these people were indoctrinated in local mosques or schools. I would prefer that we don't see it, because frankly I don't get the fact that these middle class people who have been raised in countries that have protected and respected to an extent their religion feel the need to lash out.
We also heard very little in terms of real outrage or indignation from their own communities.
We've seen stories and anonymous interviews by members of these communities and even these mosques that they didn't interject because they were afraid of the backlash.
Its not something frankly that I want to see, its not that I'm ignoring the other side of the argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.
The point about Prince is that a figure recruiting religiously like-minded zealots to go and wipe out people of other faiths is offensive and repugnant regardless of the side you sit on. But when the person is in a "muslim community" here in the west, they're home grown terrorists. When the person is a christian born in the US, we call him a CEO and an entrepreneur who moves to Dubai out of the blue (note the delicious irony on many levels).
I don't like Blackwater at all, I would recommend the book Blackwater by Jeremy Scahill as a very good reference guide. However lets differentiate here, Blackwater isn't attacking their own country or their own fellow citizens so its not a valid comparison. If your arguing about Blackwater, your arguing about a out of control mercenary army with loose rules of engagement as opposed to a marauding christian army. But at the end of the day, look at the public reaction to Blackwater here and abroad.
If Blackwater was brain washing these mercenaries handing them a gun and a bible and sending them out into the U.S. public to slaughter the infidels then it would be a valid comparison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.
Therefore, it's no secret to me why one of these examples offends and draws thread upon thread, and the other doesn't. What I see over and over in these threads are examples of people who claim that "X isn't doing anything about situation Y" simply because what they want to see isn't falling into their lap, or they're not looking for the answer prior to engaging in their narrative. This was exemplified by your comment in the recent wikileaks thread saying "Call me when we see dissidents chaining themslelves to coal plants or crying over dead ducks in polluted lakes there or in russia call me"... to which HPLovecraft replied 12 minutes later with copious links. Did all those world events happen in the intervening 12 minutes? Or did you outrage first and ask questions later?
Going back to the whole environmental issue, I still stand by what I said, Canada is getting assaulted in the environmental issues and maybe justifiably so, but China see's very little static.
I stand by the actions in Cancun where Canada rightfully said, why are we looking at Kyoto when the largest emitters in the world in China, India and the States have no interest in making effective changes, and that to me is the first time that anyone has really dropped the gauntlet on China.
Back to this topic, one of the things that moderated the catholic church was the reformation of the church driven by Martin Luthor. Islam is a more noncellular based religion, and its up to the masses to reform it and make it known that the radical members are not to be tolerated and you don't see a concerted push for that.
And yes that outrages me because I have friends that are Muslims and its embarrassing for them. but for a religion based around strength of person and strength of community and the defense of the faith, I'm not really seeing it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.
This thread is full of similar narratives, many of which can be easily debunked by the posters themselves if they simply sit back and examine what they're writing.
===
And I'm sorry that you think an internet alias is a means to promote and/or project authority. I would have thought that people would realize internet aliases are about as meaningless as they come, CaptainCrunch.
Oh no, I love breakfast serial and playing contact sports. Plus I'm a crusty former member of the military, so my name fits.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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Your comments and concerns regarding home grown radicals corrupted in muslims schools, etc... are primarily driven by what you're looking for and are implicitly interested in observing. When you don't see what you want to see and don't really look for it, then the outrage self-perpetuates.
The point about Prince is that a figure recruiting religiously like-minded zealots to go and wipe out people of other faiths is offensive and repugnant regardless of the side you sit on. But when the person is in a "muslim community" here in the west, they're home grown terrorists. When the person is a christian born in the US, we call him a CEO and an entrepreneur who moves to Dubai out of the blue (note the delicious irony on many levels).
Therefore, it's no secret to me why one of these examples offends and draws thread upon thread, and the other doesn't. What I see over and over in these threads are examples of people who claim that "X isn't doing anything about situation Y" simply because what they want to see isn't falling into their lap, or they're not looking for the answer prior to engaging in their narrative. This was exemplified by your comment in the recent wikileaks thread saying "Call me when we see dissidents chaining themslelves to coal plants or crying over dead ducks in polluted lakes there or in russia call me"... to which HPLovecraft replied 12 minutes later with copious links. Did all those world events happen in the intervening 12 minutes? Or did you outrage first and ask questions later?
This thread is full of similar narratives, many of which can be easily debunked by the posters themselves if they simply sit back and examine what they're writing.
===
And I'm sorry that you think an internet alias is a means to promote and/or project authority. I would have thought that people would realize internet aliases are about as meaningless as they come, CaptainCrunch.
so doctor...enlighten us...where should we look to find the light? Seriously you are coming across as a pious a$$...dont say things like we are looking in the wrong place when we have at least 20 different news organizations and the web throwing all kinds of information at us. Maybe Al Jazeera?
If Blackwater was brain washing these mercenaries handing them a gun and a bible and sending them out into the U.S. public to slaughter the infidels then it would be a valid comparison.
Oh, I see.
Permissive CEO who operates a framework whereby already wacky religious zealots can do what they've hideously fantasized is fundamentally different from the CEO who trains the naive to do the same.
Sure sounds like those two CEOs in these hypotheticals are after the same thing. I think our institution has an electron microscope where we may adequately visualize that split hair.
In a rush, but I hope to have more later. Your post gives plenty to work with.
Incredible that you're allowed to express such nasty generalisations as if they're part of normal civilized discourse as they long as they are about muslims. Of course they're all rationally justified conclusions if you're inclined to believe the worst about muslims - that is, by racist logic.
Try this: go back to your posts and change muslims to any other group of people. See how it sounds. Or better yet, go get some history books and see how jews have been described in the course of Europe's proud history of demonizing the other.
I don't buy your fake-liberal "shades of gray" waffle for a second. Societies are never problem-free, but racism happens to be one of those rare black-and-white issues. You're a total hypocrite crying about anti-semitism while at the same time showing no real concern for a much wider-spread form of racism.
You can act this is some pleasant afternoon tea party conversation and hope others will somehow disregard what you're actually saying and see you as taking the moderate high road, but the reality is that if we're serious about what is progressive about our culture, poisonous views like yours should be given as little breathing room as possible.
Interestingly, no other "group of people" is as unwilling to adapt to the society it willingly moves into as the very "group of people" Thor is referring to in his posts.
The ironic thing is that whitey showed up in North America with religious zealotry and a gun, and overthrew the existing culture using terrorism.
Dont get me wrong, I feel for the Natives as well, but using 500 year old excuses just doesn't cut it with me anymore.
If you want to go back hundreds of years I could drag out lots of Muslim and Christian massacres as well. For instance the Muslim massacre of 30,000 Christians in 1847, the massacres of the Khalifah.
The point is we should be well beyond the use of theocratic ideology to control the masses, degrade our women or make our children subservient.
Until the Muslims and Christians stand up and start speaking out loud about the atrocities made in the name of their God(s), this will only get bigger...and louder.
Again,,,as the PH.D suggested, its nice that a few Muslims are working behind the scenes but where is the moral outrage? I don't see it and I don't hear it at all.
Instead of this....
It's funny, when foreign people move here they're immigrants and should wholly adopt a North American lifestyle; but when white westerners move somewhere else they're "ex-pats" and no one bats an eye when they don't take on the customs and traditions of the country they're living in.
So how many of those who thanked this message have lived in another country more than say....a decade. Long enough to buy a car, own a house and raise a family? Who?
And can you give a real example of this happening? I can...but here is the kicker.
If my son whose first language is Japanese, goes to University here in Japan and gets a Engineering degree and then straps a bomb to his ass to blow the dirty "NIPS" to kingdom come....then I will understand this idiotic cultural equivalency.
Nobody expects Grandma from X-istan to speak English nor would we even expect her son Papa from X-istan to speak fluent English or become fully part of this culture. Now when Papa's sons or grandsons who have grown up in Canuckistan start being more X-istanian. Yet stay in Canuckistan, hating it and its people, maybe even wanting to kill Canuckistanians....you have to take a step back and say...WTF!
In the absence of anything else one of the primary and growing stories over the last year is based around home grown terrorists. The Toronto 18, the New York attempts, the bombing in Sweden, even going back further, the London Subway Bombings all have the common thread that these people were indoctrinated in local mosques or schools. I would prefer that we don't see it, because frankly I don't get the fact that these middle class people who have been raised in countries that have protected and respected to an extent their religion feel the need to lash out.
The indoctrination angle is great to play up, and it is effective wording to make the problem to appear much bigger than it is. If the indoctrination was meaningfully effective within a population of 1 billion+ muslims, you wouldn't be hard pressed to name hundreds upon hundreds of such acts. In fact, the world would be an utter and absolute mess well beyond what it is now.
But you're concerned about this "terrorist" problem (be it home grown or otherwise), and it's a big deal in western media right now, so the apparent magnitude of the problem seems bigger to you. It resonates with you and you're therefore inclined to give it weight. That's just how our experiences work. A mother concerned about drunk driving could get on the internet and cry her eyes out every morning. It would be with due cause because it is likely a problem that greatly exceeds the number of terrorist acts. But you don't see drunk driving stories plastered on the NY Times or Washington Post every morning because that's not the outrage that has captured western imagination and fears, despite it being a more meaningful threat to society than homegrown muslim terrorists.
So this is a long way of saying that you're turning a blind eye to the analogous acts committed by the west because you don't view it as a meaningful intrusion on your life. You brush off similar examples of the west's intransigence thanks to a nuance you identify to validate the narrative.
I submit that if you start counting the "religious" idiots, you're going to find that it is an equally small percentage across all religions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch
We also heard very little in terms of real outrage or indignation from their own communities.
We've seen stories and anonymous interviews by members of these communities and even these mosques that they didn't interject because they were afraid of the backlash.
Its not something frankly that I want to see, its not that I'm ignoring the other side of the argument.
This is all personal assessment. So the TV station found some people to interview who said that they feared backlash. Big surprise. It's easier to represent the minorities in the population on an interview than to represent the true population sample. No one is going to sit through a television expose of thousands of muslims who abhor act X in order to finally get to the interview of the one who was all jazzed up by the local Imam.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch
However lets differentiate here, Blackwater isn't attacking their own country or their own fellow citizens so its not a valid comparison. If your arguing about Blackwater, your arguing about a out of control mercenary army with loose rules of engagement as opposed to a marauding christian army. But at the end of the day, look at the public reaction to Blackwater here and abroad.
With the bolded statement, you're validating one of my points earlier in this post.
Furthermore, you're dismissing Blackwater's actions because... well, you just are. I have little doubt that we can find a crazed moron working for Blackwater because he wants to be that marauding christian crusader. And 1 person working for that company, as a percentage of its total workers (estimated at ~1000 employees, so .1%), is probably a much higher a percentage than the tallied examples of home grown terrorists divided by the number of muslims in Canada (if wikipedia is correct, in 2006 that would equate to ~800 truly crazed, homegrown terrorists).
So your outrage is a reflection of your personal assessment of risk. You're obviously free to personally assess any situation however you feel appropriate, but don't be surprised when others balk at its magnitude.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch
If Blackwater was brain washing these mercenaries handing them a gun and a bible and sending them out into the U.S. public to slaughter the infidels then it would be a valid comparison.
This is a nuance imposed by you. One could easily say that the Imams that you're worried about aren't explicitly giving sermons directing people to specific acts of violence, but implicitly giving them motivation and a conduit. However, you're inclined to accept the hypothesis in the one case while imposing a nuance to refute the hypothesis in the other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch
Going back to the whole environmental issue, I still stand by what I said, Canada is getting assaulted in the environmental issues and maybe justifiably so, but China see's very little static.
And I'm certain that you do stand by the environmental issue as you see it. My only point in drudging that example was that the narrative that you built up was already playing, and you let it extend into an assertive statement that was invalid. It simply revealed what you believe to be true and not worth effort to invalidate. We all take this shortcuts in our thought process that allows us to fortify the foundation of the narrative in our heads. I do it. You do it. Everyone does it. I did it in this post with "likely" and "I have little doubt." These are small tricks we use to airbrush the potential blemishes in our positions. They're often revealed for what they are because observers dispassionate about the topic can spot them with ease.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch
Back to this topic, one of the things that moderated the catholic church was the reformation of the church driven by Martin Luthor. Islam is a more noncellular based religion, and its up to the masses to reform it and make it known that the radical members are not to be tolerated and you don't see a concerted push for that.
You don't? Or it truly doesn't happen? These are two separate things. What news sources do you continually scan for this information? How big is your sample size? Which papers of muslim countries do you regularly read when researching this topic to shape your opinion?
A big swing and a miss here. The gentleman in this video is Pat Condell and he has a big axe to grind with anyone who disagrees with his point of view, especially those of the Muslim faith. This may not be surprising as he is also a noted Atheist and willing to challenge anyone on religion. He tends to lay at the feet of Islam any problem possible. Some may say that he is prophetic in his diatribes but others say he misses the point altogether.
My major problem with Condell is he is fast and loose with the facts. He will latch onto a topic and present what he finds that fits his narrative rather than drilling deeper to find the facts. I find that to be dishonest. For example, in this particular instance he repeats a fallacy talked about on RW web sites. The following link is from a 2009 blog entry.
The United States leads the way by a massive margin. Embarrassingly, Canada comes in 3rd. Of European countries the United Kingdom leads the way at #7 on the list. Sweden comes in at #22, with 1/6 the incidents of rape as the UK. For those concerned about per capita statistics, Nationmaster doesn't let you down.
Iceland leads the way for EU countries at #10 with the UK coming in at #13. Sweden is not listed in the top 65, but doing the math it puts them on par with the UK. So is there an axe to grind here? Nope. Just a wind bag taking at run at a subject he likes to rail on about without looking at the actual facts. Maybe he's still butt hurt about Sweden being rated a better country to live than the UK.
Here's more of his rants.
Well said Stimpy, who ever listens to this guy has issues.
So how many of those who thanked this message have lived in another country more than say....a decade. Long enough to buy a car, own a house and raise a family? Who?
And can you give a real example of this happening? I can...but here is the kicker.
If my son whose first language is Japanese, goes to University here in Japan and gets a Engineering degree and then straps a bomb to his ass to blow the dirty "NIPS" to kingdom come....then I will understand this idiotic cultural equivalency.
Nobody expects Grandma from X-istan to speak English nor would we even expect her son Papa from X-istan to speak fluent English or become fully part of this culture. Now when Papa's sons or grandsons who have grown up in Canuckistan start being more X-istanian. Yet stay in Canuckistan, hating it and its people, maybe even wanting to kill Canuckistanians....you have to take a step back and say...WTF!
I haven't lived here a decade yet, but yes I own a house, a car, a motorcycle, etc. I work with quite a few Canadians and Americans, and we make every effort to keep our culture. In my case, it isn't that different than theirs, but we make damn sure to keep those differences.
opendoor's comment wasn't about blowing things up, it was about the expectation that people assimilate culturally. I work in a Canadian-based company with offices in 60 countries, and what he said is very true, most of us don't try to assimilate when we live overseas, and the more different the culture, the more effort we put into keeping our own.
It's funny, when foreign people move here they're immigrants and should wholly adopt a North American lifestyle; but when white westerners move somewhere else they're "ex-pats" and no one bats an eye when they don't take on the customs and traditions of the country they're living in.
You know what Phil Dunphy says...
Obviously I am joking and my original comment was made in jest of the OP - While I do believe immigrants in Canada should better adopt to their new home's existing culture and customs, in no way does that translate to "like white people did".
I fully agree that if I was to move to China I would adopt their customs and cultures as best I could, and would actively immerse myself in their culture so as to assimilate as best as I could.
I prefer the American melting pot approach to the Canadian isolation (call it multiculturalism, it amounts to isolation).
Obviously tone doesn't work well in text, so there, that's my actual opinion.
