Government on the brink?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Sammie+Apr 8 2005, 06:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sammie @ Apr 8 2005, 06:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-RougeUnderoos@Apr 8 2005, 01:18 PM
Yeah I'm the bigot. I'm not the one who went to Jim Keegstra to get my car fixed. Guess who did?

I'll bite. Who did?

In other words, EVERYONE who has ever had their car worked on by Jim Keegstra, who was employed by a car repair shop in Eckville, MUST be a member of this mysterous, mystical fanatical Christian fundamentalist group he belonged to.

Why stop there. Why not condemn anyone who has ever walked on the same street as Keegstra as being a member of this fanatical fundamentalist group. Better yet. Why not classify ALL people who ever set foot in a church as a fanatical fundamentalist Christian moron. [/b][/quote]
Actually, I think the car shop was in Bentley and I believe Keegstra actually owned it.

I don't keep tabs on the holocaust-deniers and racists of central Alberta so I'm not sure. I do know that I wouldn't take my business to a hate-monger like Jim Keegstra. Would you?

[Resolute 14]

I will give you the obvious answer, Rouge.

Stockwell Day is qualified becuase he is a ranking member of his party.

That is how the majority of cabinet ministers are picked. Do you really think Anne McLellan was qualified to be Justice Minister? Or Minister of Health? Minister of Natural Resources? Deputy Prime Minister?

No, she was picked because she is important to the Liberal party. She was picked because Chretien, and later Martin needed her to serve as the token Alberta minister in the federal caucus.

Ministers (and critics) routinely get shuffled. Truth is, the face of the department is largely for show. Most of the true work is done by the committees and lawyers behind the scenes.

These positions are too big for one man's background to matter. Why do you think I feel his religious beliefs are irrelevent?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@Apr 8 2005, 08:12 PM
I will give you the obvious answer, Rouge.

Stockwell Day is qualified becuase he is a ranking member of his party.

That is how the majority of cabinet ministers are picked. Do you really think Anne McLellan was qualified to be Justice Minister? Or Minister of Health? Minister of Natural Resources? Deputy Prime Minister?

No, she was picked because she is important to the Liberal party. She was picked because Chretien, and later Martin needed her to serve as the token Alberta minister in the federal caucus.

Ministers (and critics) routinely get shuffled. Truth is, the face of the department is largely for show. Most of the true work is done by the committees and lawyers behind the scenes.

These positions are too big for one man's background to matter. Why do you think I feel his religious beliefs are irrelevent?

"Ranking member of the party" is a pretty weak reason to put him in this sensitive and important position and if he's the best they have then the Conservatives in worse shape than I thought. He's not the best they have though so it's a moot point.

Other countries don't do this. They don't send uneducated and unqualified people to do this job. It just doesn't happen. The closest one I could come to is the Foreign Minister of Germany. He was an activist and a bit of a crazy with no formal education, but he's been a member of the federal government since before Stockwell got his big job in the office a religious elementary school in Bentley.

Condoleeza Rice just got the equivalent gig in Washington. She had a Ph.D in international studies when she was 27 years old. She is an expert on international relations. She's served on the boards of major corporations, published several books on international relations and history, worked for the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the National Security Council. She was the National Security Advisor before she got this job.

Stockwell Day has a high-school diploma and he belongs to the Rotary Club. He's done some work at the provincial government level, been embarassed and condemned by his own party members at the federal level and nothing at all, nothing, at the international level.

I can't believe I have to even argue this point. The guy is not qualified for the job. He's not.

Does anyone believe the Americans or anyone else would put a guy with his qualifications and record into the equivalent position? I don't. They wouldn't. They don't. They never have. Neither have we.

[Sammie]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Apr 8 2005, 07:04 PM
Actually, I think the car shop was in Bentley and I believe Keegstra actually owned it.

I don't keep tabs on the holocaust-deniers and racists of central Alberta so I'm not sure. I do know that I wouldn't take my business to a hate-monger like Jim Keegstra. Would you?

Whether the shop is in Eckville or Bentley is of little importance since Mr. Keegstra has been retired and living in Red Deer for many years now.

I don't know the political views of more than 9/10s of the people I do business with so I can't vouch whether I've done business with hate-mongers or not. However, I have noted you've been doing your fair share of hate-mongering with your vicious attacks on Stockwell Day that are largely based on misinformation, twisted facts, and outright lies.

I would suggest you get to know the man before you start spreading such hateful opinions about what he stands for and how intelligent he is. Your comments are making you look like a deceitful fool in the eyes of people who have come know and respect Mr. Day in the Red Deer and Kelowna areas.

[CaptainCrunch]

fact is that nobody currently in government is qualified for thier position, its all about political favoritism, rewarding past favors, and rewarding or punishing segments of the country for thier votes.

If we truly were looking for qualified people to fit into thier posts, then our minister of defense would actually have to understand the problems facing the Canadian military, deployment, hardware requirements, and preferably have defense experience.

Our health minister would actually have to have worked in an administrative position in the health field.

Our justice minister would have actually had to practice law and reached the level of chief justice.

Our finance minister would have had to run a succesful company.

Basically our government is filled with idiots who couldn't get jobs in the real world so they flock to a place where thier ass kissing, and favor granting gets them keys to the vault.

This is one of the greatest government scandals since the creation of the ross rifle, the only difference is the ross rifle caused the death of soldiers.

I've never liked the Liberals, what they've stood for and thier arrogance.

Now I positively loath them.

They lie and steal from Canadians with the aim of filling thier pockets and stay in power.

Maybe the Conservatives aren't any better, but the fact is they can't be worse.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Sammie+Apr 8 2005, 11:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sammie @ Apr 8 2005, 11:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-RougeUnderoos@Apr 8 2005, 07:04 PM
Actually, I think the car shop was in Bentley and I believe Keegstra actually owned it.

I don't keep tabs on the holocaust-deniers and racists of central Alberta so I'm not sure. I do know that I wouldn't take my business to a hate-monger like Jim Keegstra. Would you?

Whether the shop is in Eckville or Bentley is of little importance since Mr. Keegstra has been retired and living in Red Deer for many years now.

I don't know the political views of more than 9/10s of the people I do business with so I can't vouch whether I've done business with hate-mongers or not. However, I have noted you've been doing your fair share of hate-mongering with your vicious attacks on Stockwell Day that are largely based on misinformation, twisted facts, and outright lies.

I would suggest you get to know the man before you start spreading such hateful opinions about what he stands for and how intelligent he is. Your comments are making you look like a deceitful fool in the eyes of people who have come know and respect Mr. Day in the Red Deer and Kelowna areas. [/b][/quote]
The "I didn't know he was a holocaust-denying racist and convicted criminal when I took my car to him for servicing" argument might be plausible if Keegstra's name, face and stupid views hadn't been in the news for years. They were though, so that defence is troublesome.

So now you have two options for your dumbass hero Stockwell Day:

1) He was too effing stupid to even notice the massive, national story about Jim Keegstra's foolish beliefs, criminal conviction and racism

or

2) He knew but he gave him the business anyway

Which is it? Was Stockwell just dumb, or was he sympathetic to Keegstra?

As for the twisted facts and outright lies I've been spreading, point them out specifically and I'll be willing to discuss each and every one of them and I'll try to defend my position.

I would suggest you get to know the man before you start spreading such hateful opinions about what he stands for and how intelligent he is

You first. The minute you develop a personal relationship with Paul Martin and then call him a crook, I'll retract my statements and we'll start fresh.

Your comments are making you look like a deceitful fool in the eyes of people who have come know and respect Mr. Day in the Red Deer and Kelowna areas.

Yep. And the bogey-man is under my bed.

In other news... you should be careful with this "Mr. Keegstra" business. Some people might get the mistaken impression that you respect him when you refer to him like that.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Sammie+Apr 9 2005, 12:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sammie @ Apr 9 2005, 12:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

That just goes to show you how painfully boring Canadian politics are. This is nothing compared to the kind of things that go on in other countries.

Bigger scandals occur elsewhere all the time that make the Liberals look like saints.

Got any examples to back that up? [/b][/quote]
There are tonnes. Just look south of the border. It seems like every administartion has a big scandal. The Iran Contra, Watergate, White Water, Enron (which somehow Bush escaped), The Hutton Inquiry in Britain. Not to mention the kind of day-to-day corruption that happens in places like Mexico, Argentina, India, and numerous other countries.

People in other countries don't care about the sponsorship thing. I bet that people in most countries never even heard of it.

[Sammie]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction+Apr 9 2005, 12:37 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlamesAddiction @ Apr 9 2005, 12:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Got any examples to back that up?

There are tonnes. Just look south of the border. It seems like every administartion has a big scandal. The Iran Contra, Watergate, White Water, Enron (which somehow Bush escaped), The Hutton Inquiry in Britain. Not to mention the kind of day-to-day corruption that happens in places like Mexico, Argentina, India, and numerous other countries.

People in other countries don't care about the sponsorship thing. I bet that people in most countries never even heard of it.[/b][/quote]
Oh great! Let's go bash some Americans too while we're at it.

What a wonderful feeling of relief I'm feeling knowing that other countries don't care about "the sponsorship thing"! :boh:

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch@Apr 9 2005, 12:10 AM


Basically our government is filled with idiots who couldn't get jobs in the real world so they flock to a place where thier ass kissing, and favor granting gets them keys to the vault.

Actually I think the current Minister of Foreign Affairs is quite qualified.

He's not exactly Lester B. Pearson, but Pettigrew's qualifications and experience are considerably (infinitely, I'd say) better than what Stockwell Day's.

Come on Captain, look through the bio's of the current Cabinet and tell me that those people aren't accomplished. Don't make me defend the Liberals. Disagree with their politics all you want but you won't find one of them who isn't an accomplished, well educated, politically experienced person.

Then look at Stockwell Day's resumé that consists of not much, national failure and embarassment. You and I rarely agree on anything but I absolutely respect your opinion so if you can show me something that you think qualifies him to be the face (and the brain behind it) of our country in international affairs then I will listen.

"Our government is filled with idiots who couldn't get jobs..."

I'm not sure about all of them, but if you look at the bigwigs... Paul Martin became fabulously wealthy in the private sector. So did Jean Chretien. Jacob Austin is a graduate of Harvard law school, Jean Austin and Ralph Goodale have law degrees and so does Anne Mclellan -- she was even a professor before going into politics. Robillard has an MA, Dion has a Ph.D and he was also a professor and bigwig thinktanker in Washington before going into politics. Pettigrew was a VP with Deloitte & Touche for 10 years. Andy Scott seems to have been a lifelong politician so, ummm. James Peterson was president of some banking-type institution. Bill Graham was a lawyer and professor before he got into politics and he doesn't need the money the government pays him. Albina Guarnieri has a government gig and an MA in English so your theory might be apply to her. Reg Alcock has a Master's from Harvard so he could probably get another job. Geoff Regan is a lawyer. Tony Valeri was a big-wheel in the insurance biz before he got into politics. Aileen Carroll had a real job but her bio makes her sound like a bit of a politico so that's another one for you. Irwin Cotler (Justice) has been a professor and/or "Fellow" at Yale and Harvard and represented Nelson Mandela. Ruben Efford ran some small businesses so I guess he was able to hold down a real job, but maybe not, I don't know. Liza Frulla was a broadcaster and worked in the advertising business. Joe Volpe was a school principal. Joseph Fontana's bio has nothing except he's been in government since 1988. Joe Brison was a banker type. Dosanjh came to Canada and worked in a mill and got his law degree 8 years after he got here so that's not bad. Ken Dryden... you know about Ken Dryden.

I've made it far enough down the www.pm.gc.ca/eng/bio.asp?id=27 to prove my point and include Ken Dryden so that's as far as I'm going to go. I don't vote for them, but I think the myth of "they can't get another job" is, umm, a myth.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Apr 9 2005, 07:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Apr 9 2005, 07:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-CaptainCrunch@Apr 9 2005, 12:10 AM


Basically our government is filled with idiots who couldn't get jobs in the real world so they flock to a place where thier ass kissing, and favor granting gets them keys to the vault.

Actually I think the current Minister of Foreign Affairs is quite qualified.

He's not exactly Lester B. Pearson, but Pettigrew's qualifications and experience are considerably (infinitely, I'd say) better than what Stockwell Day's.

Come on Captain, look through the bio's of the current Cabinet and tell me that those people aren't accomplished. Don't make me defend the Liberals. Disagree with their politics all you want but you won't find one of them who isn't an accomplished, well educated, politically experienced person.

Then look at Stockwell Day's resumé that consists of not much, national failure and embarassment. You and I rarely agree on anything but I absolutely respect your opinion so if you can show me something that you think qualifies him to be the face (and the brain behind it) of our country in international affairs then I will listen.

"Our government is filled with idiots who couldn't get jobs..."

I'm not sure about all of them, but if you look at the bigwigs... Paul Martin became fabulously wealthy in the private sector. So did Jean Chretien. Jacob Austin is a graduate of Harvard law school, Jean Austin and Ralph Goodale have law degrees and so does Anne Mclellan -- she was even a professor before going into politics. Robillard has an MA, Dion has a Ph.D and he was also a professor and bigwig thinktanker in Washington before going into politics. Pettigrew was a VP with Deloitte & Touche for 10 years. Andy Scott seems to have been a lifelong politician so, ummm. James Peterson was president of some banking-type institution. Bill Graham was a lawyer and professor before he got into politics and he doesn't need the money the government pays him. Albina Guarnieri has a government gig and an MA in English so your theory might be apply to her. Reg Alcock has a Master's from Harvard so he could probably get another job. Geoff Regan is a lawyer. Tony Valeri was a big-wheel in the insurance biz before he got into politics. Aileen Carroll had a real job but her bio makes her sound like a bit of a politico so that's another one for you. Irwin Cotler (Justice) has been a professor and/or "Fellow" at Yale and Harvard and represented Nelson Mandela. Ruben Efford ran some small businesses so I guess he was able to hold down a real job, but maybe not, I don't know. Liza Frulla was a broadcaster and worked in the advertising business. Joe Volpe was a school principal. Joseph Fontana's bio has nothing except he's been in government since 1988. Joe Brison was a banker type. Dosanjh came to Canada and worked in a mill and got his law degree 8 years after he got here so that's not bad. Ken Dryden... you know about Ken Dryden.

I've made it far enough down the www.pm.gc.ca/eng/bio.asp?id=27 to prove my point and include Ken Dryden so that's as far as I'm going to go. I don't vote for them, but I think the myth of "they can't get another job" is, umm, a myth. [/b][/quote]
Hi Rouge

I know we disagree on most things, but at least its all valid and good. I think you misunderstand me here, I'm talking in generalities, I'm not a fan of Stockwell Day, and at the moment I'm not a uberfan of Harper or Stronach, I'm basically saying that our government as a whole opposition and government are filled with people that are really unsuitable for the job.

Lets go through the bios

David Emerson - Minister of Industry

positives - bach, masters, and doctrate in economics. all told he has 10 years in leadership positions, 4 years in the banking industry, 6 years with canfor.

minuses - 10 years of his life in the private sector, the rest in the public sector. Out of the Liberal caucus, he's considered one of the better ones, however he is woefully short on private sector experience. He hasen't got much if any true experience in the manufacturing sector, or any other sector except for banking. He also wants to see more foreign ownership in Canada.

Is he good at his job, quite possibly, but is he really qualified for his position running the industry concerns of a major country, not in my mind. Hell 10 years of industry experience really dosen't qualify you for the CEO position in most companies anymore.

Jean-C Lapierre - Minister of Transport

Positives - Law degree

Negatives - No private sector experience at all, he has never run a company, or dealt with transportation issues, but he's from Quebec. Oh but he has a budding career as a radio host. This guy is woefully underqualified for this position.

The Honourable Ralph E. Goodale
Minister of Finance

Positives - Long government service, bachelor of arts degree, and a law degree.

Negatives - He's running on autopilot from the Martin budgets. In fact he won't make a decision without first getting that decision from Martin. He has no industry experience, he has no experience running a small, medium, or large company. He's floated from portfolio to portfolio, and was a terrible Minister of Public Works, and is one of the most hated former heads of the Canadian Wheat Boards ever for his heavy handed handling of the farmers.

This guy is a prime example of what I'm talking about before. He holds onto power because he's important to Martin and is in his inner circle and not because of his years experience, or his business saavy.

The Honourable Anne McLellan
Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Plus - Masters of law, dean of a law school. She was a good minister of justice and attorney general.

minuses - she was a terrible minister of health, as services and responsiveness hit the toilet while she was in charge. She has basically no experience in the field that she's in. Out of the entire government I have the most respect for her which is saying a lot. But to put a lawyer in charge of publice safety and emergency preparedness as oppossed to somebody with law enforcement or military experience is just plain wrong.

Rouge I will agree with you about Pettigrew, he seems to be a decently qualified.

The Honourable William Graham
Minister of National Defence

I could go on a rant for this guy for hours, but I'm not going to.

This guy should go nowhere near this post. He has no military experience, he might understand law and to a small extent economics, but he has no idea how a military works, how deployment works. He was at the forefront of the helicopter replacement disastor that cost Canadians thier lives. He mishandled the sub refit and purchase. He's overcommitted our military and stretched it so thin that it threatens to snap. Put into this role because he had done a terrible job in his other positions, but his seat (Toronto) demands a high profile position.

I could go through a lot of these, but I'm getting ready to leave.

I've read through the bios and all I've seen is the same thing for a lot of them. Law degree and straight into government work, where they bounced from position to position to position. With the rare exception Pettigrew, Mclellon, I've seen nothing that really convinces me that these people have any understanding, which tells me that they're figure heads controlled by thier ministries below them.

this has been illustrated time and time again.

However before you jump on me, I'm sure that if you looked at the CPC's or the NDP's or especially the Greens, you'll find the same thing, and this is why in my mind the current system of government is a failure. We're opening the gate to inexperienced people, that get placed in areas that they have no knowledge of, get captured by the system, and end up doing nothing.

this country is a mess of corruption, bad decisions and mini crisis because we have people in government that clearly don't understand the issues lead by people that have next to no leadership skills, and are better at the old saying "Deny, Deny, Deny"

Neither side is better, however at the moment and on the record, the Liberals are corrupt and have put the party before the country and the people. No matter what they have to go.

Canada needs fresh leadership.

Can Harper and his party do a better job, we need to find this out.

When the Conservatives lost the election to the Liberals years ago after BM quit we would have been having the same but opposite conversation. People would have been saying that the Liberals were wacky and different from the previous 8 year government of Conservatives, but Canada realized that there was time for a change and it needed to be done.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Apr 8 2005, 08:23 PM
"Ranking member of the party" is a pretty weak reason to put him in this sensitive and important position and if he's the best they have then the Conservatives in worse shape than I thought. He's not the best they have though so it's a moot point.

Your biasses are showing again. This has nothing to do with the Conservatives. The Conservatives arent the only party that does this, as I showed with McLellan. This is a function of the Canadian political system.

Hell, Jean Chretien never did anything in his life that would justify becomming the Prime Minister, and his legacy will reflect that: He did nothing of note that could be considered a benefit to Canadians, and right now has an excellent chance of being remembered as the most corrupt politician in Canadian history.

Believe me, I am well aware that the Canadian government is in need of wholesale reform. How other countries do it is immaterial. We are not other countries. Cabinet positions are handed out like Senate seats: To whoever kisses the prime ministers ass the best.

[transplant99]

I'm just thrilled that the Liberals are actually looking like they may get turfed. Corruption on this magnitude, and this blatent, has been ongoing for years.

It's good timing for me as well, as the blond and I have 90% decided to make the move back North of the border. One of the biggest reasons i left, and have been hesitant to return, was that I knew the Libs would be in power a good long time, all the while taxing and spending their way to win after win at the Federal level. When the last election returned a minority I really started to pay attention as which way the political wind was blowing, and why the change took place. Clearly canadians were getting tired of the promises not being kept, and the obvious wasting of their money.

This scandal will be their death knell if they can't get a cap on it, and/or, someone from within the party (higher up) starts blowing whistles as well. I think that's VERY possible as someone looks to come out of this as the "hero" for telling the truth, with an eye on leading the party in 5-8 years time.

The house of cards is crumbling. I will be watching with keen interest.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@Apr 9 2005, 10:30 AM

This is a function of the Canadian political system.
[/quote]
But it's not. At least not in this position. Canada has never named a guy liked Stockwell Day (inadequate, inexperienced, uneducated, unqualified) it's top diplomat. The PCs, the Liberals, nobody. Mulroney sure as hell didn't.

He would be an embarassment. He cannot do this job. He doesn't understand it. He's not a diplomat or a negotiator. He's done nothing at all in his life, not one thing, to prove that he can handle this job or even understand what it is.

[Shawnski]

The Liberals should get punted... quickly. Enough is enough. They have eclipsed the goofiness and thuggery of the Progressive Conservitives under Mulrooney.

The current Conservative Party of Canada is NOT the Progressive Conservatives that rules previously to the Liberals. Not even close. They were formed from a long transition from the Reform Party. A Western voice. One that strove for accountability. Honesty. Integrity. Take your shots at the individual ideologies of any members or candidates, I truly believe they were standing up for what they believed in, not for what they could garner. HUGE difference.

My Mother (rest in peace), followed the '80's and 90's quite closely, and was totally against Mulroney. She met Manning and Harper on numerous occasions, and communicated with them on issues that she wanted input. To her, it mattered that her voice was heard... they listened, and frequently responded to her concerns. She had a wealth of knowledge, and I believe helped shape Reform policy.

Our family is not a business focussed atmosphere. My Dad has held union jobs throughout his life. Mom was a homemaker. My eldest sister is a government worker. I have been on both sides of the workforce (management and union VP). But we all understand social obligation, yet all voted Reform. Why? Trust. And unless you can walk in my shoes, don't even think of disrespecting my, or my families, opinions.

The current CPC has roots with the Reform party. This is NOT the Mulroney type folks here. Harper is a good man, although I have seen several cases were people would rather him have a "rock star" personality than his reserved and introspective one. Please.... that is silly. I would rather have a humble, and solid, leader than the flamboyant and BS perpetuating personalities like the historical PC/Liberal leaders, and unfortunately, Prime Ministers of our countries.

As to the "Gay marriage" issue, wow, what a red herring; a pawn in the political process; a divisive measure. While lemmings focus on this, the political vote is divisive while the bigger issues of effective and efficient health care, education, peace-keeping ability (aka military spending), immigrant employment issues, and child poverty get put on the back burner. Ask yourself this.. How does "gay marriage" rank on your personal priority list? How big an impact does it have on your political priorities?

Red herring. There is a LOT more important issues to address than this, but guess what... the Liberals figure this can clog up the other issues. Classic case of "three card monty".

Bottom line.... I recommend that you vote Liberal if you enjoy them pocketing your dollars into their own coffers, or other undesclosed recipients, and have no backbone to disagree with that practice. "Holding your nose" to do so is silly. It is no better than holding your nose while eating some pizza that I just urinated upon. Seriously. Wake up.

Our confederation is seriously in jeopardy. Accountability should be paramount right now. REGARDLESS of individual riding candidates, this is the key, and I believe that the mild mannered Harper might in fact turn out to be a Canadian Superman, if given the chance.... he most certainly isn't going to be the arrogant Trudeau, Mulroney, Chretien or Martin.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Shawnski@Apr 9 2005, 10:36 PM
My Mother (rest in peace), followed the '80's and 90's quite closely, and was totally against Mulroney. She met Manning and Harper on numerous occasions, and communicated with them on issues that she wanted input. To her, it mattered that her voice was heard... they listened, and frequently responded to her concerns. She had a wealth of knowledge, and I believe helped shape Reform policy.

It's funny you say that because before the last election, I emailed the Conservative Party (and the Liberals, NDP, and Greens) and asked them about some questions and concerns I had. My email was polite, and I told them that I wasn't sure how to vote yet.

The Conservative party never emailed me back. The rest did. One of the questions I asked was if it was true that because my parents were not born in Canada, that I would not have been a citizen of Canada at birth. If it was untrue, I figured they would at least email me to clear it up.

The ironic thing is that as much as I hate Mulroney, I liked his PC party more than the New Conservative party which has way too much of a social agenda. I would vote for a Joe Clark conservative in a second, but never a Harper, Day, or Manning.

[Mike F]

Originally posted by Shawnski@Apr 9 2005, 03:36 PM
As to the "Gay marriage" issue, wow, what a red herring; a pawn in the political process; a divisive measure. While lemmings focus on this, the political vote is divisive while the bigger issues of effective and efficient health care, education, peace-keeping ability (aka military spending), immigrant employment issues, and child poverty get put on the back burner. Ask yourself this.. How does "gay marriage" rank on your personal priority list? How big an impact does it have on your political priorities?

Red herring. There is a LOT more important issues to address than this, but guess what... the Liberals figure this can clog up the other issues. Classic case of "three card monty".

Oh good, thanks for clearing that up. I can't wait to go to my gay and lesbien friends to tell them that they can stop all their efforts to eliminate one of the last bastions of government endorsed discriminaion and gain a right many Canadians take for granted because it's not really important... some guy named Shawnski says it's not on the official list.

Bottom line.... I recommend that you vote Liberal if you enjoy them pocketing your dollars into their own coffers, or other undesclosed recipients,# and have no backbone to disagree with that practice. "Holding your nose" to do so is silly. It is no better than holding your nose while eating some pizza that I just urinated upon. Seriously. Wake up.

So what should I do Oh Wise One. When I go to vote and I look at the ballot and see a candidate who stands for virtually everything I believe in and who had no connection to any scandal, should I just ignore him/her and vote for someone whose policies I disagree with and who I'm certain will head to Ottawa and work against the policies I favour?

Our confederation is seriously in jeopardy. Accountability should be paramount right now. REGARDLESS of individual riding candidates, this is the key, and I believe that the mild mannered Harper might in fact turn out to be a Canadian Superman, if given the chance.... he most certainly isn't going to be the arrogant Trudeau, Mulroney, Chretien or Martin.

Oh.. My.. God Exaggerate much?

Our confederation is seriously in jeopardy?? In what way?

Harper = Superman?

[longsuffering]

Originally posted by Bingo+Apr 8 2005, 02:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bingo @ Apr 8 2005, 02:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Lurch@Apr 8 2005, 01:57 PM
Oh it does. So when you suggest this is 'the worst scandal in Canadian political history' or something to that effect, it's lame to to look back on history and compare this event to other scandals. You have quite interesting standards for what is lame.

Speaking of history ... I think your historical look at this string is a bit out of whack.

I didn't bring "history" up until this string was way off topic and into Stockwell Day. My point then as it is now, is deflection.

You can try to deflect my deflection comment by saying I opened the topic of history but that wouldn't be genuine.

But if you insinst on looking back I think many view this event as THE MOST CORRUPT in Canadian history nonetheless.[/b][/quote]
This may very well prove to be the "worst scandal in history" but I don't think it is fair to paint the whole party or all the current Liberal MPs as corrupt.

Truth be told, I don't think referring to ADSCAM as political corruption is right. It is/was a criminal conspiracy involving a small, but admitedly senior, group of Liberal insiders and senior government bureaucrats. I expect to see jail time for a number of people and wouldn't be surprised if Chretian is proven to have personally benefited from Ad money. But this government is not Chretians government.

Should they be kicked out because of the scandal. I don't think so. The policies of the Liberal party are more in line with my values and beliefs than those of the Harper's party. That is why they would get my vote.

That's what it comes down to for me.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Apr 9 2005, 11:37 AM
This is a function of the Canadian political system.

But it's not. At least not in this position. Canada has never named a guy liked Stockwell Day (inadequate, inexperienced, uneducated, unqualified) it's top diplomat. The PCs, the Liberals, nobody. Mulroney sure as hell didn't.

He would be an embarassment. He cannot do this job. He doesn't understand it. He's not a diplomat or a negotiator. He's done nothing at all in his life, not one thing, to prove that he can handle this job or even understand what it is. [/quote]
When Stockwell Day is named Foreign Affairs minister, you will have a point.

You are aware that a critic and a minister are not the same thing, right?

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally posted by transplant99@Apr 9 2005, 09:45 AM
I'm just thrilled that the Liberals are actually looking like they may get turfed. Corruption on this magnitude, and this blatent, has been ongoing for years.

It's good timing for me as well, as the blond and I have 90% decided to make the move back North of the border. One of the biggest reasons i left, and have been hesitant to return, was that I knew the Libs would be in power a good long time, all the while taxing and spending their way to win after win at the Federal level. When the last election returned a minority I really started to pay attention as which way the political wind was blowing, and why the change took place. Clearly canadians were getting tired of the promises not being kept, and the obvious wasting of their money.

This scandal will be their death knell if they can't get a cap on it, and/or, someone from within the party (higher up) starts blowing whistles as well. I think that's VERY possible as someone looks to come out of this as the "hero" for telling the truth, with an eye on leading the party in 5-8 years time.

The house of cards is crumbling. I will be watching with keen interest.

The Libs won't go anywhere. Welcome back if you head back to Canada, but don't expect the gov't to be any different.

sincerely, your resident stick in the mud.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@Apr 9 2005, 06:12 PM

But it's not. At least not in this position. Canada has never named a guy liked Stockwell Day (inadequate, inexperienced, uneducated, unqualified) it's top diplomat. The PCs, the Liberals, nobody. Mulroney sure as hell didn't.

He would be an embarassment. He cannot do this job. He doesn't understand it. He's not a diplomat or a negotiator. He's done nothing at all in his life, not one thing, to prove that he can handle this job or even understand what it is.

When Stockwell Day is named Foreign Affairs minister, you will have a point.

You are aware that a critic and a minister are not the same thing, right? [/quote]

You are aware that a critic and a minister are not the same thing, right?

Yeah, I think so. But thanks for asking.

When Stockwell Day is named Foreign Affairs minister, you will have a point.

Good to see that we finally agree.