The S.E. gets the short end ...again

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

It should be mentioned that even if the green trip money was used for the SELRT, the nature of the funding would mean that shovels wouldn't go into the ground probably until 2015, at least, likely 2017 or so.

Are you saying that seeing as it's going to take 5-7 years from the time we get funding to the time we get construction started, that there is no need to get anything started soon?

To me it's the opposite- seeing as it will take some time we should get the ball rolling as soon as possible. Especially when right now we have a company that is looking to bid it for hundreds of millions less than what it would normally cost.

Besides, if the "halfassed" line is already either running or under construction; it makes it easier to address the expansion later on. Part of the problem now is nobody wants to spend the $3-4 billion it's going to get the LRT system to the way we want it. And that is understandable; that's a huge chunk of cash.

It's not like spending the $600M now will be money sent down the drain; it will just be part of the system completed.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Are you saying that seeing as it's going to take 5-7 years from the time we get funding to the time we get construction started, that there is no need to get anything started soon?

No, what I'm saying (because the city's three options mentioned earlier say so) is that, becasue the green trip money comes slowly, it will take that long to get enough money to start construction. The option the city gave to use the green trip money completely for SELRT involve socking away money for 5-7 years to amass enough money to start.

Actually, looking the options up, here's what it says:

There is insufficient funding in the first three years of the Green TRIP program for meaningful construction. As a result, the timeframe for delivery of Southeast LRT cannot be accelerated. The City would need to commit to the construction of Southeast LRT, including $320 million in local matching funds, without certainty of supportive cash flow under the Green TRIP program."

Looking at finding an alternative funding source means that construction may start sooner - whether it be P3, or an expansion of the provincial MSI program, or whatever.

Like I said, I'd love to see a P3, Design, Build, Operate contract. Give the bidders some hard guidelines, and then have them figure out what is the best technology/method/line routing to accomplish that. I think all that would be required to fund something like that would be to have a secure source of funding for the length of the contract (likely something around 30 years).

[ken0042]

City aldermen reach transit funding compromise

In a compromise move, city council voted Wednesday to use its provincial transit grants on new LRT cars for limited four-car service and $73.4 million for southeast transit upgrades.

[SebC]

That actually seems silly. The LRVs are necessary now and when the SE LRT gets built, why not buy them first?

[ken0042]

Actually you have that backwards. The LRVs will be needed by 2014; whereas the SE improvements are needed now. The whole idea is to make sure the current BRT can actually be "rapid."

Had the SE received all of the funding, then yes some would have gone into the SE LRT.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Actually you have that backwards. The LRVs will be needed by 2014; whereas the SE improvements are needed now. The whole idea is to make sure the current BRT can actually be "rapid."

Had the SE received all of the funding, then yes some would have gone into the SE LRT.

2014 is for four cars system-wide. We can use more LRVs as soon as West LRT opens. Even more LRVs once that line has four car stations.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by SebC

2014 is for four cars system-wide. We can use more LRVs can go into service as soon as West LRT opens. Even more LRVs once that line has four car stations.

I think you might have missed a word in your sentence so I may be misreading you, but the current order of 38 LRVs (some of which are received and in service) are to service the West LRT and the two extensions to the northeast and northwest. Assuming 3 car trains that is.

[ken0042]

Figured I'd bump this thread. I saw a sign on 52nd street today about a SE LRT open house; June 23 7:00pm at the Glenmore Inn.

I'm not sure who is putting it on; I tried to find a link on CT, Shane Keating's and the City's websites- nothing.

[puffnstuff]

Haven't been around much...but I thought I 'd jump in here...stir the pot a bit.

I think, and its my opinion so don't get all pissy about it, the airport tunnel is a colossal waste of money (its a want, not a need) whereas SE LRT is a need. It should have been funded with what is being spent on a half assed tunnel.
Saying everyone benefits from the tunnel...world class...yadda yadda yadda, not buying it. Yes, that corner of the northeast could save 5 or 10 minutes going east-west...if it is built properly, but it doesnt seem like it is going to be, too many concessions. I was cheering for the CAA to stick it out and kill the project.
How about building something so that some 100,000 plus SE residents have access to what the majority of the rest of the city does (or will once the West leg is completed)
The city has blatantly neglected access from the deep SE...there are 2 lanes from the deep south on Deerfoot...thats it. No plans to expand it...Alberta Transport comes out every year and counts the cars...nothing gets done.
End rant.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by puffnstuff

Haven't been around much...but I thought I 'd jump in here...stir the pot a bit.

I think, and its my opinion so don't get all pissy about it, the airport tunnel is a colossal waste of money (its a want, not a need) whereas SE LRT is a need. It should have been funded with what is being spent on a half assed tunnel.
Saying everyone benefits from the tunnel...world class...yadda yadda yadda, not buying it. Yes, that corner of the northeast could save 5 or 10 minutes going east-west...if it is built properly, but it doesnt seem like it is going to be, too many concessions. I was cheering for the CAA to stick it out and kill the project.
How about building something so that some 100,000 plus SE residents have access to what the majority of the rest of the city does (or will once the West leg is completed)
The city has blatantly neglected access from the deep SE...there are 2 lanes from the deep south on Deerfoot...thats it. No plans to expand it...Alberta Transport comes out every year and counts the cars...nothing gets done.
End rant.

The money for the tunnel would have built the SE LRT from Olympic way to around Ogden. The tunnel is about $280 million of cost now, the SELRT line would cost about $2B now to get to MacKenzie Towne.

Even if you held the tunnel money back reserved for the SELRT, you would need to significantly invest in NE transportation infrastructure ($100s of millions) before the SELRT would likely start construction (assuming no extraordinary funding sources).

If anything, doing the tunnel now speeds up the SELRT, because it will still save a little bit of money for the city in the timeframe where the SELRT is likely to happen.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by puffnstuff

Haven't been around much...but I thought I 'd jump in here...stir the pot a bit.

I think, and its my opinion so don't get all pissy about it, the airport tunnel is a colossal waste of money (its a want, not a need) whereas SE LRT is a need. It should have been funded with what is being spent on a half assed tunnel.
Saying everyone benefits from the tunnel...world class...yadda yadda yadda, not buying it. Yes, that corner of the northeast could save 5 or 10 minutes going east-west...if it is built properly, but it doesnt seem like it is going to be, too many concessions. I was cheering for the CAA to stick it out and kill the project.
How about building something so that some 100,000 plus SE residents have access to what the majority of the rest of the city does (or will once the West leg is completed)
The city has blatantly neglected access from the deep SE...there are 2 lanes from the deep south on Deerfoot...thats it. No plans to expand it...Alberta Transport comes out every year and counts the cars...nothing gets done.
End rant.

I'll buck the trend of my usual long-winded-type responses and just point out the most glaring error in your reasoning: the A for B mistake. The Southeast LRT, in isolation, isn't being sacrificed so that the Airport Tunnel, in isolation, can be built.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Figured I'd bump this thread. I saw a sign on 52nd street today about a SE LRT open house; June 23 7:00pm at the Glenmore Inn.

I'm not sure who is putting it on; I tried to find a link on CT, Shane Keating's and the City's websites- nothing.

Bump for a reminder of this. I'm going to try to swing by to see what this is all about.

[ken0042]

Well- went and there is nothing going on at the Glenmore Inn. Hope nobody else wasted a trip like me.

[ken0042]

Ok- guess I misread. Deerfoot inn - not Glenmore Inn.

[ken0042]

So, there wasn't much in the way of new info at the meeting. I would say that followers of this thread could have spoken about the challenges just as well as anybody there. (Especially finkprof)

However, it was still a great start. It was hosted by a couple of realtors who do a fair bit in McKenzie Towne, and had all 3 levels of gov't represented; Shane Keating, Art Johnston, and somebody from Jason Kenney's office. (Kenney's rep made a funny joke about why he was there; mentioning that Kenney was busy in Ottawa and he would give us Jack Layton's cell # if we wanted to complain.)

The premise of the meeting; look at what is needed going forward. Forget the past, don't point fingers, etc. And they discussed a few ideas on how we can get started. Things like a dedicated BRT line- build the overpasses so that train tracks can be installed later on. Also discussed building the line part way; as it would be easier to extend the line once it has been started.

A bit more info can be found here; as well as a petition.

One side note- I was impressed with Shane Keating. Very personable; and was well prepared for the questions he knew he would face. When the question came up "Did we lose the SE LRT to build the airport tunnel?"- he had a 30 second answer that satisfied the person asking. Very direct and to the point.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by ken0042

When the question came up "Did we lose the SE LRT to build the airport tunnel?"- he had a 30 second answer that satisfied the person asking. Very direct and to the point.

What was the gist of his answer?

I agree, I like Keating. Quite good for a rookie alderman in my observation. He really wants the SE LRT and anyone in Ward 12 can rest assured that he is trying extemely hard to make it happen.

[ken0042]

Basically talking about how the tunnel money came from money allocated from the province for roads; and that how the SE LRT would be funded by money set aside for green transportation methods.

The other thing- he waited until everybody who wanted to talk to him had a chance. He stuck around a good 30-40 minutes longer than the other guys. He also made a point during his speach to intruduce his office assistant; and she also worked the crowd afterwards.

[Barnes]

Question for you frink,

How long ago was the west LRT at the point at which the SE LRT is at now. I know it's infinitely more complex but it would be interesting.

I am interested to know about improvements to the BRT. The route is really ridiculous at some points and it's hardly "rapid".

I would much rather the bus go straight up 52nd to 114th rather than 52nd, 130th, deerfoot, barlow, 114th.

It should go straight up 24st from DouglasGlen rather than snake it's way through Quarry Park. A stop at Quarry Park Blvd would be enough as most people who work at quarry park can walk easily from there. If you work in Quarry park, you have a parking spot or cycle from the deep se.

There also needs to be a dedicated bus lanes crossing Glenmore in both directions and past where the Hell's Angels club house used to be.

And for god's sake, finish the GD Portland Street bridge. It's seriously been under construction for almost 2 years.

Where the bus turns off 9th ave and into downtown is a very tight turn due to the East village style curbs and parking lanes.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by Barnes

Question for you frink,

How long ago was the west LRT at the point at which the SE LRT is at now. I know it's infinitely more complex but it would be interesting.

I think the most simple answer to that is:

1983, then again in 1988, then again in 1994, then again in 2006.

The more complicated answer is never, the approach is different. More elements of the SE LRT are likely to be determined by the winning bid in a design-build-own-(possibly) operate RFP process.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Barnes

And for god's sake, finish the GD Portland Street bridge. It's seriously been under construction for almost 2 years.

You mean the one at Blackfoot? It only started last summer. A little off, but yeah it's been a slow job. Not much you can do with so much constrained space and the need to maintain traffic.