How/Why does Tod Button still have a job?

[Double_Dion]

Originally Posted by SoulOfTheFlame

Except that they haven't been... right?

Dion is the only star pick made in the first round since the Tod button regime began. Is this really acceptable?

Not at all! Especially when it seems that all the teams that are winning have their draft picks. Here is a quick list of the last 15 stanley cup champs:

(round-overall)
PIT- crosby(1-1), malkin(1-2), fleury(1-1), staal(1-2), letang(3-62), talbot(8-234), orpik(1-18)
DET- franzen(3-97), hudler(2-58),filppula(3-95), kronwall(1-25), kopecky(2-38), zetterberg(7-212), datsyuk(6-171),holmstrom(10-257), lidstrom, fedorov, sillinger, kozlov, primeau
ANA- Getz(1-19), perry(1-28), bryzgalov(2-44)
CAR- Staal(1-2), ward(1-25), ladd(1-4), wallin(4-97)
TB- lecav(1-1), richards(3-64), kubina(7-179)
NJ- brodeur(1-20), gionta(3-82), gomez(1-27), sykora(1-18)
COL- Liles(5-159), tanguay(1-12), skoula(1-17), drury(3-72), forsberg- for lindros
DAL- langenbrunner(2-35), niewendyk- for iginla

[Nuje]

Building through the draft is not the secret to success, but it's probably the best avenue to it. Success in the NHL is based on having

A. The players to win, and
B. The coach(es) to guide them.

Sounds simple. You can hire any coach available. With point A though, the salary cap is in the way. You need bang for the buck. The best way to get that (by far) is to build through the draft. Sutter instead:

1. gave up a draft pick to acquire an injury prone 3rd pairing defenseman
2. Replaced that with a lower draft pick, and gave up a $650 000 Dustin Boyd, rather than say, a $1 300 000 David Moss (who has less points, is older, slower, and while it's certainly an off year for him, the guy's 28, this is as good as he'll get)
3. Insisted on Jamal Mayers coming in the Phaneuf trade, even though Prust did the same thing for half the money
4. Gave up Prust (which in Sutter's eyes neccesitated Mayers as just mentioned), along with Jokinen (who was a UFA, and would either make less money next year, or simply be out of our hair) for Kotalik, who will be making 3 million a year for the next 2 years.

That's just a small bit of his moves this year. Now I think Tod Button should be out of a job (and should've been a while ago). But even he finds the occasional good player. As mentioned, Howse seems like he's going in the right direction right now (although the first round pick of Erixon should've been Despres instead IMO if they really wanted a dman). I think that John Negrin will be able to be a competent 2nd pairing guy with some skill, and T.J. Brodie seems like a nice steal. Our 1st rounders since Phaneuf, outside of Backlund, seem to be atrocious though.

I like Matt Pelech a lot, and years after the draft (unless the guy went top 10 or so), I don't expect a player to have to live up to his draft position, but the GM and scouting should have to answer to the effectiveness of their scouting. It is seriously sub-par.

[Flamesguy_SJ]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Screw Button, how does Mike Milbury have a job still?

I remember seeing him comment on some of the trades at the deadline over the last couple years and I'm like, really mike? really?

You single handedly took the Islanders franchise and set them back 20 years. Single handedly. Congratulations. The man deserves a Darwin award, I can't fathom how he still has a voice of opinion in the hockey media.

[canadianboy]

How/why does tod Button still have a job?
Button and the scouting department still have a job because they have done a good job. Im only guessing but the majority that are commenting on theese prospects have never seen them play before and are judging based purely upon stats.Buttons first few years as director when Craig was GM they came to the draft and took risks many of them didnt pan out but they came up to the plate with the intention of hitting a homerun. Under the sutters the scouts arent really given that chance they more so go for lower risk less reward picks. Anyone who critizes any of Craig or Daryl's strategy at the draft is clearly an idiot. Youre all critizing from an armchair and if some of you who believe they should be fired why dont you apply for the job and see how easy it is. No one on this forum approaches the hockey iq of theese individuals. The flames have not fired any of their chief scouts but in recent years i noticed someturnover in regional and european scouts.

The year the flames took chucko guess who was number one on the flames board?Travis Zajac. He wasnt available so they were able to convince darryl go for a homerun. the year they took irving i believe sutter instructed them to take a goalie so that the organization could eventually have a decent tendy other than mikka rather than risking it by hoping there are good ufa's. Pelech is an absolutely insane defencmen i watched him a few times in the O and have seen some ahl action and hes ready. As for nemisz hes a little hard to judge but im guessing he will be a third liner. in typically cp fashion after only watching a small sample of games after the WJC there was thread essentially saying he was the worst forward out their. If anyone actually watched the game it was clear that he was the most effective forward defensively and never actually hurt the team. The next year the flames took backlund and i know some one who was on the floor and apparently the scouting staff were the ones that wanted him and daryl wasnt that keen on him. Erixon is going to be good. He can support the rush, lead the rush, is a good skater, has a good shot, and can move the puck effectively. Of recent the flames have found a few great players later in the draft bouma a good character guy, mitch whal who will definatly be intresting, ryan howse who is a pure sniper, TJ Brodie one of the best d man in the o and has shown great improvment every year.

I actually like i said know someone on the floor of every draft and apparently daryl very heavily favours canadian kids especially those in the whl. The only area the flames need to improve upon in scouting is taking NCAA players. i will be honest we suck at it. Also we could improve in who we select in the 2nd round it seems like those picks never pan out.

A lot of problems might not actually lie in the work of the scouts but that of the organisation. Over the past few years the farm teams have bounced around with no stability at all. that is not the enviroment to build succecful players. This upcoming draft i would like all of you who critisize to pick any player whoyou believe will be one of theese hidden gems from those selected between round 3-7 ill be willing to put money on that player never panning out.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Nuje

3. Insisted on Jamal Mayers coming in the Phaneuf trade, even though Prust did the same thing for half the money

I realize this is just one point you are making - but on this one I disagree entirely. I didn't get why Mayers came over at the time, but he's been very good in his role. That 4th line has been effective and can't be blamed for the losses. Moreover, he's really helped on the face off dot which had been a huge problem. Over 52% on the draw.

[Cactus Jack]

Originally Posted by canadianboy

How/why does tod Button still have a job?
Button and the scouting department still have a job because they have done a good job. Im only guessing but the majority that are commenting on theese prospects have never seen them play before and are judging based purely upon stats.Buttons first few years as director when Craig was GM they came to the draft and took risks many of them didnt pan out but they came up to the plate with the intention of hitting a homerun.

Pelech is an absolutely insane defencmen i watched him a few times in the O and have seen some ahl action and hes ready. year.

Todd Button's drafting was actually better under his brother than Darryl. Anyone that would rather have from 7 drafts Dion, Boyd, Pardy, Prust, Backlund over from 3 drafts Lombardi, Kobasew, Nystrom, Stoll, Foster and Moen is out of their minds.

Secondly, this is Pelech's 5th year of development and Darryl chose to bring a soon to be 37 year old Staios at a 2.7 million cap hit instead of leave a spot open for Pelech next year. Yes, he could move someone in the offseason to make room but this doesn't exactly make me think he has confidence in Pelech. By God, it's been 5 years and despite the injury problems if he's not ready to be a defensive defenceman in 5 years we're wasting time and money developing him.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by canadianboy

I actually like i said know someone on the floor of every draft and apparently daryl very heavily favours canadian kids especially those in the whl. The only area the flames need to improve upon in scouting is taking NCAA players. i will be honest we suck at it. Also we could improve in who we select in the 2nd round it seems like those picks never pan out.

In cap era hockey your team has to be built with 2nd and 3rd rounders, the need to draft good young cheap role players is far more important than hitting the home run for a star, those you can trade for.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by canadianboy

The year the flames took chucko guess who was number one on the flames board?Travis Zajac. He wasnt available so they were able to convince darryl go for a homerun. .

The Flames actually traded down to draft Chucko, Boyd, and Pardy. Zajac was picked by the Devils with the Flame's original pick....

[Double_Dion]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

The Flames actually traded down to draft Chucko, Boyd, and Pardy. Zajac was picked by the Devils with the Flame's original pick....

Haha. Ridiculous.

We traded up to get Kidd, NJD gets Brodeur. Just thought I would add that one. It gets me every time.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Double_Dion

Haha. Ridiculous.

We traded up to get Kidd, NJD gets Brodeur. Just thought I would add that one. It gets me every time.

There is lots of luck involved with drafting, a person can find tonne's of examples with ease.

For example, in the 2001 draft the Devils drafted a fellow named "Adrian Foster"... at number 20 (never played a game in the NHL).

Shows how hard it is to draft in the later part of the first round.

They could of had the following players instead....

Derek Roy
Mike Cammalleri
Patrick Sharp

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by flambers

There is lots of luck involved with drafting, a person can find tonne's of examples with ease.

There is lots of luck involved with poker, but the pro players generally tend to win more then they lose.

I'd say it's the same in the NHL. Certain teams get "lucky" alot more often then others.

I'd put the Flames in the average to below category, and it hasn't changed under Sutter. (I'd put the Oilers there as well, just in case anyone wants to turn this into THAT thread because I'm an Oilers fans.)

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

There is lots of luck involved with poker, but the pro players generally tend to win more then they lose.

I'd say it's the same in the NHL. Certain teams get "lucky" alot more often then others.

I'd put the Flames in the average to below category, and it hasn't changed under Sutter. (I'd put the Oilers there as well, just in case anyone wants to turn this into THAT thread because I'm an Oilers fans.)

Prospects that are drafted late in the first round are basically projects.

It takes ~ 5 years to see these players become NHL ready.

In my opinion folks are generally way to impatient.

For example look at the 2007 draft, in my opinion the Flames did a really good job.

Backlund is basically NHL ready

Negrin - will be an NHLer

Aulie - will be an NHLer (for the Leafs)

Thats 3 NHLers with 3 selections.

[Double_Dion]

Originally Posted by flambers

Prospects that are drafted late in the first round are basically projects.

It takes ~ 5 years to see these players become NHL ready.

In my opinion folks are generally way to impatient.

For example look at the 2007 draft, in my opinion the Flames did a really good job.

Backlund is basically NHL ready

Negrin - will be an NHLer

Aulie - will be an NHLer (for the Leafs)

Thats 3 NHLers with 3 selections.

If it takes 5 years, then the player is not that good. I'd say 3 years max for any good first rounder.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by flambers

Prospects that are drafted late in the first round are basically projects.

It takes ~ 5 years to see these players become NHL ready.

In my opinion folks are generally way to impatient.

For example look at the 2007 draft, in my opinion the Flames did a really good job.

Backlund is basically NHL ready

Negrin - will be an NHLer

Aulie - will be an NHLer (for the Leafs)

Thats 3 NHLers with 3 selections.

That's your hope. Prospects typically look better the closer to the draft the evaluation is done.

If it takes 5 years, you should be evaluating drafts where 5 years have elapsed.

2003-One NHLer. Phaneuf
2004-Three borderline NHLers. Boyd, Prust, Pardy
2005-Zero after 5 years.
2006-Next season will be 5 years for this draft. Do you think any players will be ready to step into the NHL next season? It sure doesn't look like it.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by flambers

Derek Roy
Mike Cammalleri
Patrick Sharp

Then Sharp was traded at age 24 to Chicago for Matt Ellison and a 3rd rounder.

[Itse]

I think it's pretty pointless to argue about whether or not Button sucks or not.

He's obviously not great. No matter which way you spin it, he's done an OK job at best, and after all these years there's no reason to expect him to get better. We want better drafting, I'd think that's a given? To get there we simply have to try new people at key positions, because otherwise there's just no way anything will change.

It's not like we'd lose something invaluable. As the teams around the league have shown, there's plenty of people that can do that job as good as he can. Basicly if we give his job to someone else, the worst case scenario is that we'll be very slightly worse.

At this point I think it's fair to say that the best case scenario with Button is that we don't get any worse.

[Dorkmaster]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

That's your hope. Prospects typically look better the closer to the draft the evaluation is done.

If it takes 5 years, you should be evaluating drafts where 5 years have elapsed.

2003-One NHLer. Phaneuf
2004-Three borderline NHLers. Boyd, Prust, Pardy
2005-Zero after 5 years.
2006-Next season will be 5 years for this draft. Do you think any players will be ready to step into the NHL next season? It sure doesn't look like it.

Kiprusoff, good pick or terrible pick because it took him till about 28 or so before he finally got the starting job. Ryan must have been a bust because the 2nd overall pick took forever before he became a full time NHLer. Bertuzzi took a long time to get into his groove and Penner wasn't in the NHL till 24.

Bourque didn't play till he was pretty old and hasn't done much till his late 20's.

Drafts take years to unfold.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

That's your hope. Prospects typically look better the closer to the draft the evaluation is done.

If it takes 5 years, you should be evaluating drafts where 5 years have elapsed.

2003-One NHLer. Phaneuf
2004-Three borderline NHLers. Boyd, Prust, Pardy
2005-Zero after 5 years.
2006-Next season will be 5 years for this draft. Do you think any players will be ready to step into the NHL next season? It sure doesn't look like it.

to clarify;

2004 - 3 NHLers

2005 - Matt Pelech, Brett Sutter (could break in next year). Gord Baldwin is another prospect who has a shot at NHL.

2006 - Leland Irving is a good prospect, goalies take allot longer to develop..

John Armstrong came close to making the team last year has had injury problems

[Shazam]

Meh. If the job boils down to luck, then just put all the draftable players names into a hat and draw them as your turn comes.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Meh. If the job boils down to luck, then just put all the draftable players names into a hat and draw them as your turn comes.

There is luck involved without a question, I have seen CPHL GMs draft better NHL teams.