WOW, You Canadians and your Healthcare

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by missdpuck

Are Canadian doctors given any kind of bonus for practicing preventative medicine (whatever that may be)? I believe they are in Britain.

Nope.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by NuclearFart

Nope.

Would they accept it?

Rostered care has never been fancied by the CMA I think. (could be wrong)

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by Table 5

I'm not sure you can find a health care system that is cheap, effective, an good anywhere on the planet. Health care is expensive, no matter who pays for it.

Totally agree with this.

My beef with the canadian system is our priorities are:

1) doctors and nurses unions
2) The giant hmo bureaucracy
3) health care
4) wellness care
5) patient choice

In the US I'd argue they've shuffled the deck, depending on coverage, but still not hit the right recipe because the insurer is always in the mix.

No one will have truly fixed any system until there are only 3 clear priorities - patient choice, health care, and wellness care. Other countries have gotten far closer than anyone in north america to this.

There's a reason no other country (to speak of) has our crappy fully socialized system, and no other country (to speak of) has the US aversion to some kind of socialized medicine. We both suck.

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

Would they accept it?

Rostered care has never been fancied by the CMA I think. (could be wrong)

If implemented properly (ie. clearly defined and appropriate compensation), I don't see why not. It's not as though we don't already preach prevention.

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

Totally agree with this.

My beef with the canadian system is our priorities are:

1) doctors and nurses unions
2) The giant hmo bureaucracy
3) health care
4) wellness care
5) patient choice

In the US I'd argue they've shuffled the deck, depending on coverage, but still not hit the right recipe because the insurer is always in the mix.

No one will have truly fixed any system until there are only 3 clear priorities - patient choice, health care, and wellness care. Other countries have gotten far closer than anyone in north america to this.

There's a reason no other country (to speak of) has our crappy fully socialized system, and no other country (to speak of) has the US aversion to some kind of socialized medicine. We both suck.

Not quite sure what you are saying about "our priorities" but doctors don't have a union. Residents sort of do, but it lacks any of the leverage a true union would.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by NuclearFart

Not quite sure what you are saying about "our priorities" but doctors don't have a union. Residents sort of do, but it lacks any of the leverage a true union would.

Union would be my description. I know it is an association.

My point was more that in our health system its built first to serve those in it, those who run it, and only afterward those who are supposed to benefit from it.

I don't think doctors or nurses sit around thinking 'screw the patient' or anything. Or that the bureaucrats get their rocks off denying care. Individuals want to do the right thing. But I think the organizations get stuck in self interest more often than not.

[Ice]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

this is such a stupid argument, and one i can't believe gets so much traction in the states. so you'll trust your government to protect your freedom with the military, to protect and serve locally with a police force, to protect homes and businesses from fire, and to educate your children. but yet somehow the government is too stupid to be trusted to provide you healthcare

Police departments aren't run by the federal government, they aren't even run by the state, they are run by their municipality. Its not even a fair comparison to a federal program. Look to Welfare for a perfect example why I don't trust our government to spend money wisely and why I don't want them interfering in my health care.

Education is partially funded federally but ultimately is run by each state. I think we can all agree that public education in the US, overall, is a failure. Teachers unions and special interests care more about protecting their position than educating kids and it shows. Again, using that model, I don't want my state, or any other, in charge of my healthcare.

I'm not saying the system is perfect, but its pretty obvioius neither the US or Canada has a perfect system. I would rather not have my government get involved at this point. I don't think my family pays too much out of pocket for our healthcare. I had my first child for a total of $8.00, that included all my prenatal care through my delivery. Had I not wanted a TV in my hospital room it would've been $3.00. Sure, I had to wait for referrals but at the time I was willing to do that to save money and have an HMO.

Now, with my husband being diabetic, I wanted him to have the best doctors available for preventative care so he doesn't develop the kinds of problems later that diabetics face so I'll pay more for a PPO and more choices. I can't even imagine how his level of care would diminish if my goverment got involved. With all the cancer that runs in my family, I want the best treatment possible should I develop the cancer that killed both my paternal grandmother and my father. I also want to be diagnosed early and my doctor spares no expense on all the early detection testing so I don't suffer the same fate as my family members. For me, its just too risky for my goverment to get involved in my private life when I am perfectly capable of working for what I want and willing to pay the price to receive the care and attention I feel my family needs.

[justafan]

I think we all want the best care. I just know that there are many upsides to our health care. My sister when diagnosed with skin cancer, a mole on her stomach, was immediately seeing the onocologist and surgery. They told her they "don't mess around" with that kind of thing. I know when I had some heart issues, they were immediate at emergency. I am glad to know that even if my sister was poorer financially, she would receive the same excellent care and top rate doctor(s).

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

Union would be my description. I know it is an association.

My point was more that in our health system its built first to serve those in it, those who run it, and only afterward those who are supposed to benefit from it.

I don't think doctors or nurses sit around thinking 'screw the patient' or anything. Or that the bureaucrats get their rocks off denying care. Individuals want to do the right thing. But I think the organizations get stuck in self interest more often than not.

That's a very bold statement to make - care to elaborate?

And our Association is merely a professional organization, no different than any other professional designation. Do you think APEGGA is a union?

[vicphoenix13]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

You are describing HMO plans.

You are generalizing.

Enlighten me since you live in the U.S. You can't deny how much power that insurance companies have done south. They make billions in profits every year. Even people who have employer based healthcare are having issues. Small businesses can't afford the health insurance plans because the costs are out of control.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by NuclearFart

That's a very bold statement to make - care to elaborate?

And our Association is merely a professional organization, no different than any other professional designation. Do you think APEGGA is a union?

Just stating an opinion, one that is obviously going to get me into trouble. But based mostly on percpetion.

I don't think apegga collectively bargains rates for all it's members, or has ever threatened job action. Apegga is the certifying body too, no? More like the college of physicians and surgeons?

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by vicphoenix13

Enlighten me since you live in the U.S. You can't deny how much power that insurance companies have done south. They make billions in profits every year. Even people who have employer based healthcare are having issues. Small businesses can't afford the health insurance plans because the costs are out of control.

Oh, no question.

I was referring to the part of your post where you imply that we can't choose our own hospitals, doctors, lose coverage for pre-existing conditions etc.

All of that garbage happens with HMO plans. It's not as widespread as you post leads one to believe, that's all.

[Cowperson]

A Canadian doctor diagnoses USA healthcare today in the LA Times.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...0,538126.story

Truthfully, both sides could learn something from the other. The doctor talks about the split 50 years ago . . . . . but it's that ideological divide, now entrenched, that prevents improvements in both arenas.

Cowperson

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

A Canadian doctor diagnoses USA healthcare today in the LA Times.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...0,538126.story

Truthfully, both sides could learn something from the other. The doctor talks about the split 50 years ago . . . . . but it's that ideological divide, now entrenched, that prevents improvements in both arenas.

Cowperson

It is a good article. My own perception from living in both countries is that Canada's system is vastly more efficient. I got some insight into it when I first moved to the US, and had to get an emergency appendectomy. I had taken out the AMA insurance to subsidize my Canadian health care for the first year I was here. That alone made things interesting. The second thing is they kind of botched the surgery a bit, so I had to stay about twice as long as normal for that type of procedure.

There were no less than 7 different entities sending bills!! Anesthesiologist, ER dr, Operating room doctor, CT scan company, xray company, hospital, hospital pharmacy. All 7 send very high bills, that the insurance company then has to negotiate lower (to usually about half, pretty ironic that insurance companies pay about half the price for the same service compared to an individual billed directly). Then the insurance company pushed back, since it was the dr that botched it, why should they pay for keeping me there for 4 extra days! This went on and on for about a year. Took up at least 40 hours of my time, I assume at least 200 hours of lawyers, actuaries, administrators time, and so on. I had marks put on my credit at one point I had to get removed, it was a complete nightmare! Couldn't help but think that cost at least 10,000 more in admin costs than it would have in Canada.

Now that I am on a big company health plan, everything is fairly smooth. We've had a couple child births, and a few medical conditions and er visits, and I'd say that for someone like us the quality of care is better than my (and families experiences in Canada) for similar things. But I'd still have a slight preference for the Canadian plan for humanitarian reasons, and the peace of mind that more of my money is going to doctors and nurses, than to lawyers and administrators.

[ernie]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

ernie....

Who was their homeowner's insurance provider?

My health insurance company just sends an affidavit for you to sign saying that you don't have other insurance. Done.

Sounds like your friend has some pretty unfortunate insurance company choices.

Not sure who the homeowner insurance provider was.

The health coverage is through Blue Cross (company plan).

I think the problem from the insurance company is that 1) he's a a fairly recent hire, 2) it is likely a huge bill where she was airlifted somewhere, stayed the night and was released and 3) his wife is a nurse. There is a belief that because she is a nurse that they would have access to a better plan. I think they got it all sorted out at the end of last week as they got a letter from the insurance company here employer uses saying they do not have coverage with them. It was all pretty ridiculous.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by ernie

Not sure who the homeowner insurance provider was.

The health coverage is through Blue Cross (company plan).

I think the problem from the insurance company is that 1) he's a a fairly recent hire, 2) it is likely a huge bill where she was airlifted somewhere, stayed the night and was released and 3) his wife is a nurse. There is a belief that because she is a nurse that they would have access to a better plan. I think they got it all sorted out at the end of last week as they got a letter from the insurance company here employer uses saying they do not have coverage with them. It was all pretty ridiculous.

Interesting. I have Blue Cross as well, but the administration of the plans varies from state to state.

I have heard horror stories about homeowners insurance. Been extremely happy with American Family. State Farm is notorious for not paying claims.

Glad they got it all worked out in the end, despite the hoops.

[vicphoenix13]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Oh, no question.

I was referring to the part of your post where you imply that we can't choose our own hospitals, doctors, lose coverage for pre-existing conditions etc.

All of that garbage happens with HMO plans. It's not as widespread as you post leads one to believe, that's all.

Wouldn't a public healthcare option make sense? The healthcare insurance companies don't adequately compete with one another.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by vicphoenix13

Wouldn't a public healthcare option make sense? The healthcare insurance companies don't adequately compete with one another.

Something has to change.

What the Obama administration has proposed, IMHO, would be disastrous.

[vicphoenix13]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Something has to change.

What the Obama administration has proposed, IMHO, would be disastrous.

Could Obama's plan be any worse than the Republicans do nothing approach? I have heard some of them say the system is fine. Well, I guess its alright for the politicians that are taking hush payments from the insurance companies. Even Democrats like Max Baucus are guilty of taking money from insurance companies. So I get suspicious when the Blue Dogs want to water down the bill because they all got bought off by insurance lobbyists.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by vicphoenix13

Could Obama's plan be any worse than the Republicans do nothing approach? I have heard some of them say the system is fine. Well, I guess its alright for the politicians that are taking hush payments from the insurance companies. Even Democrats like Max Baucus are guilty of taking money from insurance companies. So I get suspicious when the Blue Dogs want to water down the bill because they all got bought off by insurance lobbyists.

The Blue Dogs are the only reasonable voice left on Capital Hill.

Forcing through a health care plan that will cost the US taxpayer trillions without slowing down to make sure all the bases are covered is a recipe for disaster.

Funny how people are so quick to accept what Obama wants, but were bitching like crazy about Bush going into Iraq before all the evidence was actually looked at.