How many people here believe in God, Heaven and angels, Hell and Satan and his demons

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by valo403

What does it mean if I suddenly got really hot and broke out into rashes when I walked into the sistine chapel?

If you burst into flames and were reduced to a pile of sulfur it would be a pretty compelling argument that you were Satan.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by alltherage

He communicates with people, and heals the sick at times when prayed upon.

This has always baffled me. Prayers heal sometimes. Who takes the blame when the prayers don't work and the person isn't healed?

Seems to me that the most fervent believers have been praying all along. Praying for things like health and happiness and whatnot.

Then one of 'em gets sick and it's time for more prayers. "We prayed and prayed and thank the lord, grandma's bowel obstruction was removed and she's back home, better than ever".

Well what happened to Grandma and everyone else's prayers before she got sick? Did she do something wrong?

Seems to me that the guy who healed the sick person made the person sick in the first place, but everyone is slapping him on the back for a job well done.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

This has always baffled me. Prayers heal sometimes. Who takes the blame when the prayers don't work and the person isn't healed?

Seems to me that the most fervent believers have been praying all along. Praying for things like health and happiness and whatnot.

Then one of 'em gets sick and it's time for more prayers. "We prayed and prayed and thank the lord, grandma's bowel obstruction was removed and she's back home, better than ever".

Well what happened to Grandma and everyone else's prayers before she got sick? Did she do something wrong?

Seems to me that the guy who healed the sick person made the person sick in the first place, but everyone is slapping him on the back for a job well done.

god's will!

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Sure but the work in the Sistine chapel is considered to be a work of divine inspiration, and the beauty that mankind is capable of creating in concert with God.

The believer looks at all of the wonder and beauty in the world and says, "this couldn't exist unless there's a God." The atheist looks at all of evil and suffering and says, "this wouldn't exist if there's a god." I can see both points of view, but I think an individual's life experiences have a lot to do with where they come down on that, and I'm not sure that God/god could really give anyone much credit or blame for those views either way.

Of course, the people who make most of the noise about the topic on both sides are those who are just convinced that they're more intelligent or more blessed than others, but I think they're in the minority.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

This has always baffled me. Prayers heal sometimes. Who takes the blame when the prayers don't work and the person isn't healed?

Seems to me that the most fervent believers have been praying all along. Praying for things like health and happiness and whatnot.

Then one of 'em gets sick and it's time for more prayers. "We prayed and prayed and thank the lord, grandma's bowel obstruction was removed and she's back home, better than ever".

Well what happened to Grandma and everyone else's prayers before she got sick? Did she do something wrong?

Seems to me that the guy who healed the sick person made the person sick in the first place, but everyone is slapping him on the back for a job well done.

Thats the logical fallacy of miracles and cures by God. If there is a way to disprove God its if you strongly believe in miracles.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

[DFO]

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

i used to say this myself. then i grew up and realized that it doesn't matter what other people believe in, it matters what i believe. i learned to accept other and their beliefs, no matter how crazy i think they might be, as equals. i am no better than a religious fanatic, i am just of different belief, plain and simple.

That quip of mine obviously came across a little harsh - but I still have my opinion. I dealt with more than enough of it in my youth and I've made the decision to break from all of it - I'm just a live and let live kind of person and believe in the separation of church and state to to the fullest. I'm just tired of dealing with a segment of the population that thinks you need religion to have a moral compass or any of that other stuff. I just think organized religion has outgrown its usefulness.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by photon

Heh, sometimes I will point out to a theist that that means they are agnostic (assuming knowledge is based on something that is supported by evidence, so no evidence = no knowledge).

They don't seem to like that much.

I honestly don't think this makes any sense. It's confusing, comes off quite smug, hairsplitting about definitions, and in the end, almost certainly wrong.
I think they don't like it because it's confrontational.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by DFO

That quip of mine obviously came across a little harsh - but I still have my opinion. I dealt with more than enough of it in my youth and I've made the decision to break from all of it - I'm just a live and let live kind of person and believe in the separation of church and state to to the fullest. I'm just tired of dealing with a segment of the population that thinks you need religion to have a moral compass or any of that other stuff. I just think organized religion has outgrown its usefulness.

It's ironic then that the separation of Church and State is explicitly a product of Protestant thinking.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by gargamel

Of course, the people who make most of the noise about the topic on both sides are those who are just convinced that they're more intelligent or more blessed than others, but I think they're in the minority.

I used to think they were in the minority, too.

The internet cured me of that belief. Most people just don't want to get into an intense argument with someone face to face. Nothing starts an argument than things that make it clear you think you're smarter. But online, you can say anything and not have to worry too much.

They aren't in the minority. And they aren't usually that smart, either.

[DFO]

Originally Posted by peter12

It's ironic then that the separation of Church and State is explicitly a product of Protestant thinking.

I just dread that our system is becoming more polarized along the religious lines - no need for it.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by DFO

I just dread that our system is becoming more polarized along the religious lines - no need for it.

Other way around. Because it is trying to get away from appearing religious, it's making life more difficult for those who are religious - which leads to politics that try to restore the balance, and swing that segment of the political spectrum to be more zealous, which leads to people creating a backlash against a "religious system", which makes it even more hostile to the believer, which leads them to support even more hardline politics.....

all because our system tried to excise religion in the name of tolerance, and in the process became intolerant.

[LChoy]

One more
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UbqZ_oN5do

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Knalus

Other way around. Because it is trying to get away from appearing religious, it's making life more difficult for those who are religious -

How, specifically, is life becoming more difficult for those who are religious?

[jar_e]

I haven't read the whole thread...I'm in a rush to head downtown...but I feel I should post this (even again if its been posted already.)

Choice of religion (or lack thereof) is a necessity than trying to rid society of it. People who say that we need to destroy religion are no better than the other end of the spectrum and people who say we need to destroy atheism. I was born and raised a christian and hold those beliefs close to me...but in the same breath I know that its a personal choice and I'm not here to force you to "convert"...and you shouldn't force me to convert either.

Its a personal choice. Its not one or the other in the world...both can live in harmony. My personal beliefs are like my taste in music...some people will agree with them, the majority won't. But c'est la vie. If I'm happy with the decisions I've made regarding them, what do I care what other people think?

That's my two cents...

[Sample00]

Originally Posted by alltherage

I understand that this is tongue in cheek, but money thing is just stupid. How would Churches pay for maintainance, staff, priests, charities, taxes, etc etc etc without donations? Catholic Churches don't demand money, they solicit donations. The basket can pass you by every Sunday for your entire life and noone would say a word.

I'm sorry alltherage, yer a great person, fine CP contributer, well versed Flames fan but that my friend, is complete and utter bull**it!

I spent many a day in a Catholic church during my youth. St. Boniface in Calgary to be exact. That motley crue would always and I mean, always check out what you were wearing and if you put money in the basket and how thick was the envelope. Frig, they knew if you do a monthly contribution of your friggin paycheck for crying out loud.
This was reason number 476 why I left the church and vowed never to go back.
Absolute farce, I tell ya.
But i still like ya!

[wittynickname]

I'll throw my thoughts out on the subject, since I checked like, 3/4ths of the stuff in the poll.

I believe in a God, a single God who created the universe, the planets, the stars, etc. I believe he created all life forms. But at the same time, I don't believe the earth has only been around for what, 3-4 thousand years. I tend to have a varied belief on faith. I feel that there had to have been a creator for all that there is--everything is just too complex, too intricate to be a random happenstance--and yet it's hard to ignore that there must be some form of evolution. I don't think all life forms started as amoebas--rather it seems to me that several life forms were created--fish, birds, primates, humans, etc--and over time, each of those life forms evolved and changed, depending on their climate and whatnot.

To me the Bible isn't a complete, black-and-white book, this is wrong, this is right. There are some things that go without say--you don't kill people, for example--but there is room for a whole lot of grey area, situations that are affected by circumstance. If a rich CEO is embezzling money from a company--wrong. If a man's children are going hungry and he steals some food for them, well, that's a different story. I believe in the idea that God created all, that Satan was once an angel who wanted independence, and that God--being just--allowed him the opportunity to run the show for a while, and see how he did, hence the reason conditions are as bad as they are now--Satan's failings, rather than "God's will."

I do believe that at some point in the future--distant or near, who knows--will do away with Satan, and make right what he made wrong. He was given the opportunity to rule, and he failed, therefore God was proven right. But I don't think that it's necessarily any one "faith" or "course" that will protect a person at that time, that if a person is generally good, and looks out for others' best interests, etc, that they'll be spared.

I also don't believe in "Hell" as in a burning fiery place of torment. To me the idea of Heaven and Hell would mean that God and Satan, in a way, are working TOGETHER, not enemies. If God doesn't want them in Hell, he sends them to Satan, and vice versa. As far as the "afterlife"--not all would go to Heaven--a small group would go to Heaven to assist Jesus in ruling, but the vast majority of humans would remain on the earth--a perfected, non-polluted, peaceful earth--to live forever.

I just rambled way too long on this.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

How, specifically, is life becoming more difficult for those who are religious?

There are many situations where it is getting more and more uncomfortable to see the reactions that happen when you mention what you believe, whether or not that was a topic you brought up or not. In some situations, people become actively hostile to anyone that reveals their beliefs (at least the ones that they disagree with). While I understand that many Atheists and members of other religions have felt that same feeling, this is a situation that Christians are feeling more and more on an ongoing basis. Remember, those that are Religious believe they are in the minority, and those that are Atheists also believe they are in the minority as well.


To give an example of your question, in particular this is the case in school - both grade school, and especially university.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Sample00

I'm sorry alltherage, yer a great person, fine CP contributer, well versed Flames fan but that my friend, is complete and utter bull**it!

I spent many a day in a Catholic church during my youth. St. Boniface in Calgary to be exact. That motley crue would always and I mean, always check out what you were wearing and if you put money in the basket and how thick was the envelope. Frig, they knew if you do a monthly contribution of your friggin paycheck for crying out loud.
This was reason number 476 why I left the church and vowed never to go back.
Absolute farce, I tell ya.
But i still like ya!

I disagree with that. I grew up in a small town in Ontario (Belleville to be exact) and my family went to church every Sunday. When they passed the basket around I never saw anyone else keeping tabs on how much the next person was contributing. Maybe you felt that in your church but I think you are the exception.

[Thor]

I think since this discussion is getting more enjoyable as we go along, I would humbly suggest we remember that although we cannot disprove God, we can however do things like use reason/logic to understand age of the earth, the fossil record, evolution, and our vast understanding of the cosmos. Not to mention understanding who wrote the testaments, flaws, contradictions of religious documents that we know clearly today.

I mean there are people who think the earth is 6000yrs old, we know this to be untrue, faith over reason. Same goes for the overwhelming evidence from the fossil record, and of course that we evolved from simple life to the diversity we see today.

I personally am curious with those who believe in God, do you believe someone created that God? Do you believe there are other Gods that exist along side the one you believe in?

Thanks in advance.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by Sample00

I'm sorry alltherage, yer a great person, fine CP contributer, well versed Flames fan but that my friend, is complete and utter bull**it!

I spent many a day in a Catholic church during my youth. St. Boniface in Calgary to be exact. That motley crue would always and I mean, always check out what you were wearing and if you put money in the basket and how thick was the envelope. Frig, they knew if you do a monthly contribution of your friggin paycheck for crying out loud.
This was reason number 476 why I left the church and vowed never to go back.
Absolute farce, I tell ya.
But i still like ya!

Perhaps you were in the wrong church? Not all churches are the same. Another subtlety often lost on people.