Idiot unions in Toronto

[MarchHare]

Re: Mr. Coffee's post:

My younger sister is an elementary school teacher, and she'll confirm almost everything you said in your post. She's still young (about five years on the job) and enthusiastic. She's really passionate about developing the minds of her students, and she puts in tons of time outside of regular school hours prepping for classes, volunteering to supervise extra-curricular activities, and really going above and beyond. At the end of every school year, she creates a slideshow of photos she's taken of her class throughout the term and hosts an event where the parents of her students come to watch it. She's enrolled in an M.Ed. program because she wants to enhance her professional credentials and become better at her job.

On the other hand, some of her colleagues at her school (they tend to be older teachers who have been "ground down" by the system) just don't give a crap. They show up for 8:00, put in their seven hours, then go home at 3:00. They may have been passionate about their profession at one point, but those days are long gone. Now they're more interested in calculating how many years are left until their retirement than they are in shaping the future of their students. They never volunteer for any extra-curricular activities, and they do the absolute bare minimum amount of work required by their collective bargaining agreement.

They also earn nearly twice the salary my sister is making because they have union seniority.

[flamingreen]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Re: Mr. Coffee's post:

My younger sister is an elementary school teacher, and she'll confirm almost everything you said in your post. She's still young (about five years on the job) and enthusiastic. She's really passionate about developing the minds of her students, and she puts in tons of time outside of regular school hours prepping for classes, volunteering to supervise extra-curricular activities, and really going above and beyond. At the end of every school year, she creates a slideshow of photos she's taken of her class throughout the term and hosts an event where the parents of her students come to watch it. She's enrolled in an M.Ed. program because she wants to enhance her professional credentials and become better at her job.

On the other hand, some of her colleagues at her school (they tend to be older teachers who have been "ground down" by the system) just don't give a crap. They show up for 8:00, put in their seven hours, then go home at 3:00. They may have been passionate about their profession at one point, but those days are long gone. Now they're more interested in calculating how many years are left until their retirement than they are in shaping the future of their students. They never volunteer for any extra-curricular activities, and they do the absolute bare minimum amount of work required by their collective bargaining agreement.

They also earn nearly twice the salary my sister is making because they have union seniority.

How is that in anyway unique to teachers or unions in general? I would bet eager young employees putting more into their job and being paid less than worn down senior employees counting down the minutes to retirement is happening in a majority of office buildings downtown right now.

To think that unions have a monopoly on unmotivated, lazy, not-giving-a-crap employees while private companies are able to purge such people at a moments notice is a pretty naive notion.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by flamingreen

How is that in anyway unique to teachers or unions in general? I would bet eager young employees putting more into their job and being paid less than worn down senior employees counting down the minutes to retirement is happening in a majority of office buildings downtown right now.

To think that unions have a monopoly on unmotivated, lazy, not-giving-a-crap employees while private companies are able to purge such people at a moments notice is a pretty naive notion.

Hey do you mind keepin it down, I'm trying to sleep under my desk here.

[Resolute 14]

Except that not a single person in this thread has stated or implied such a thing.

I will, however, bet that most everyone will tell you that a union environment breeds such people at a far higher rate than a non-union environment.

[SteveToms]

18 sick days? That's 3 and half weeks(counting it as business days). That's stupid... I had a job where if you called in sick 3 times in a year they thought that was too much.

Unions suck, I once had a raise reduced, and a higher union dues after new contract was signed.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by flamingreen

How is that in anyway unique to teachers or unions in general? I would bet eager young employees putting more into their job and being paid less than worn down senior employees counting down the minutes to retirement is happening in a majority of office buildings downtown right now.

To think that unions have a monopoly on unmotivated, lazy, not-giving-a-crap employees while private companies are able to purge such people at a moments notice is a pretty naive notion.

It may not be unique to union shops, but a highly successful company will typically be filled with people who earn their wage on the basis of performance, not seniority. Someone who brings positives should be rewarded, someone who goes through the motions should be turfed. In a union environment the latter isn't even an option. There's absolutely no reason to do more than the bare minimum, you can't be let go and you're guaranteed to get a raise. How does that make for an effective system?

In my line of work salary is determined by seniority for the first 7-8 years, each class year gets x amount of dollars. However, people are still rewarded for their work through bonuses and the prospect of differentiated salaries beyond that period. A strong employee will earn many times more than the guy doing the bare minimum at the end of things, and that causes people to actually bust their asses to be the best they can be.

You're right that non-union companies have their fair share of lazy unmotivated employees, but where do you get the idea that they can't be terminated at a moments notice? An at will employee can be terminated for any reason, or no reason at all, so long as there's no illegal basis/purpose. If a company is electing to retain a lazy worker it's either because they pay them a low enough wage that their laziness isn't an issue, or they don't have the ability to replace the worker with a better substitute. That's an issue of the company either being poorly managed or not having the means to make a change, there's nothing preventing them from firing a lazy employee when they wise up or achieve those means.

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by valo403

You're right that non-union companies have their fair share of lazy unmotivated employees, but where do you get the idea that they can't be terminated at a moments notice?

Not in Canada, every province has requires employment to either give a minimum amount of notice or an equivalent amount of money in lieu of notice if the employer is terminating the employee without cause. The exception is probationary employee (in Alberta employees who have work for the employeer for less than 3 months) who don't require notice for termination. Also if the employer offer general severance to it's employees than it must paid that(as long as it gives the employee as much as under employee standards act). Failure to give notice or payment is considered wrongful termination and the employee has the right to sue.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

Not in Canada, every province has requires employment to either give a minimum amount of notice or an equivalent amount of money in lieu of notice if the employer is terminating the employee without cause. The exception is probationary employee (in Alberta employees who have work for the employeer for less than 3 months) who don't require notice for termination. Also if the employer offer general severance to it's employees than it must paid that(as long as it gives the employee as much as under employee standards act). Failure to give notice or payment is considered wrongful termination and the employee has the right to sue.

Okay, but that doesn't change the fact that you can fire them on the spot for being useless. Try that in a union shop.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by SteveToms

18 sick days? That's 3 and half weeks(counting it as business days). That's stupid... I had a job where if you called in sick 3 times in a year they thought that was too much.

Unions suck, I once had a raise reduced, and a higher union dues after new contract was signed.

Exactly, I almost can't even believe this 18 day number. Assuming there are 20 work days in a month, which there are, and these apparent ICU patients are asking for MORE sick days, they are basically saying they want to be allowed to be sick for 1 month a year.

A MONTH!!! My lord!!! What are you eating? Go to a doctor. Seriously, that's absurd.

Honestly, how often do most people here call in sick? I bet it's no more than 4-5 days a year, on average, for people on this site. Max.

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Here's a concept, how about not having a union. That way the teachers that teach well and work hard get rewarded, and the lazy-not-give-a-crap teachers get laid off, like the rest of society. Once laid off, maybe these people will realise that putting in an effort does offer up internalized rewards and self fulfillment with the goal to being a better person and a better teacher and improving conditions.

Are you upset about the collective bargaining aspect of the union? Because I would not feel comfortable teaching without some of the benefits I get from my union, like legal representation if some kid decides to exact revenge on me for some perceived slight by saying I touched them.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree if it's the entire union and that's cool - but reading your original post, I guess it wasn't clear to me that you were targeting 'only the bad teachers' who frustrate me as well, as opposed to everyone in the profession.

And psicodude, I honestly looked at the memo and I am not getting 5.99% - splitting hairs, I suppose, and I know there is a deficit right now, but what would be the point in signing a bargaining agreement that said "your wages will follow AWE, so if that goes up 5% you get the same raise, unless the economy is bad and then you don't". Given the language of the contract the government signed with us, I don't feel bad about getting a raise.

Am I grateful to have a job while others are losing theirs? Of course, just as I have empathy for those people as well. But if the government didn't want to get into the situation they will be in September when we get that raise, they shouldn't have signed that agreement - and in THAT specific sense, I don't feel bad about getting a raise.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Am I grateful to have a job while others are losing theirs? Of course, just as I have empathy for those people as well. But if the government didn't want to get into the situation they will be in September when we get that raise, they shouldn't have signed that agreement - and in THAT specific sense, I don't feel bad about getting a raise.

That's such a BS argument. What would have happened if the government didn't sign the agreement? We both know the answer, the teachers would be out on strike.

It's completely ridiculous to make it seem like the government had the ability to tell the union that the term wasn't going to work and that would be the end of it. I have no problem with the process of bargaining, but when one side has the ability to essentially extort the terms it desires from the other that system just isn't effective. Unions developed because employers had too much power over workers for the relationship to work, it's come to the point that the power balance has shifted in the opposite direction.

[Antithesis]

Well, at the time, the government offered us that deal, and put a deadline on it. The entire province - all union locals - had to agree to it within a pretty short time frame to have it in place, so I guess in this case the government was the one holding the gun there. I dunno. Maybe I should just stop posting in this because I get the idea that I am coming off as a complete moron here! I'm not saying it looks good right now, but that raise was calculated in March - like I said - a time where there was still 6 months of economic growth to take into consideration in their calculations. I've thought for a while that the upcoming raise wouldn't look good and I can't see that it will.

[AvengeR]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Personally I would go out for mexican for a week straight, take the biggest dump I could in a black garbage bag, and then fire it at the first union member that tries to stop me from dropping it off.

... or you can find out the address of the union leaders and get people to dump garbage on their lawns.

[AvengeR]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

Are the unions the ones responsible for making cars that people don't want to buy? I would think that the executive teams should be taking the fall for the issues that domestic car manufacturers are experiencing right now.

People don't buy domestic cars because of their poor reliability. The most reliable domestic vehicles are the ones that are built in Mexico... hmmm... why is that? Oh yeah, they have no unions and the Mexican workers love their job and take pride in what they do.

The union workers on the other hand are lazy slobs who don't care about the company they work for. They just go to work each day and do just the minimum that is required of them. For example, if a person's job is putting on the steering wheel and they see a screw loose on the door, they are told be union leaders that they should just ignore it because their job is to just put on the steering wheel, nothing else.

Chrysler wanted to implement a new process that would allow any worker on the assembly line to put a stop to all work if they see anything wrong. This is what is in place at the Japanese plants. The Union voted that down.

Chrysler also wanted to put in new robots and model their plants after the Honda plants. This would drastically improve the quality and reliability of the vehicles and help the company sell more cars. The union also said no to this as some workers would have to be let go.

Sure sounds like the union cares about the success of the company.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Well, at the time, the government offered us that deal, and put a deadline on it. The entire province - all union locals - had to agree to it within a pretty short time frame to have it in place, so I guess in this case the government was the one holding the gun there. I dunno. Maybe I should just stop posting in this because I get the idea that I am coming off as a complete moron here! I'm not saying it looks good right now, but that raise was calculated in March - like I said - a time where there was still 6 months of economic growth to take into consideration in their calculations. I've thought for a while that the upcoming raise wouldn't look good and I can't see that it will.

I don't know the specifics of your deal, so I'm not really arguing the merits of a particular case, I just think that the organized labor movement is completely out of touch and operates to the detriment of the majority of the industries it's involved in. There are still positive aspects to unions, the legal protection you mentioned is a good example, but there are a lot of areas that need substantial reform. The problem of course is that unions are fairly influential politically, so taking steps to decrease their power is pretty much impossible by legislative means.

BTWm the only thing that makes you look like a moron is that SC avatar

[Antithesis]

Oh no you didn't!!!!

[mmanzz]

All I can say about this is public sector unions can stuff it! This strike is one of the reasons why i left Toronto in the early 90s. The current mayor of Toronto makes Mel Lastman look like an Einstein. Oh and The Leafs Suck!!

[CaptainCrunch]

Toronto is starting to look like one big garbage dump

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_35609.aspx

The flies are starting to breed enmass due to the rich food sources. It won't be long til people start getting sick.

[Ironhorse]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The flies are starting to breed enmass due to the rich food sources. It won't be long til people start getting sick.

They can use the garbage workers' sick days.

[ken0042]

When they do settle this, they should make the new contract X.5 years. That way when it comes up again it will be in December. Cold weather makes it harder to be out to picket, and less of a problem with garbage piling up.