High Speed Rail - Calgary/Edmonton

[SebC]

High speed freight seems to be pretty useless. I don't see much added value over low speed freight to justify the cost.

[Northendzone]

Originally Posted by SebC

High speed freight seems to be pretty useless. I don't see much added value over low speed freight to justify the cost.

what if you have a trailerload of girls?

[worth]

If Taggart Transcontinental can get the Rio Norte line up and running with Rearden Steel, it would solve all our problems.

[darklord700]

I talked to people who travel between Cal-Edm every week and they say it all depends on the price of the ticket. Red Arrow costs about $70 and takes 3 to 3 1/2 hour. Let's say the HSR travels at 140KM/h so the trip will take 90 minutes plus another boarding and loading time of 30 minutes to make it 2 hr.

How much extra are you willing to pay to shave 1 to 90 minutes off your travel? That's the question. It's hard to imagine HSR doesn't cost at least twice as much as Red Arrow. So let's say $150 per ticket, so about $150 round trip more than Red Arrow for the speed and comfort of traveling by rail. Personally, I doubt a one way ticket will cost anything less than $200 on the HSR.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

what if you have a trailerload of girls?

Anyone who watched season 2 of The Wire knows what happens when you move a container of girls using low speed freight.

You thought expired chocolate milk was bad...

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by darklord700

I talked to people who travel between Cal-Edm every week and they say it all depends on the price of the ticket. Red Arrow costs about $70 and takes 3 to 3 1/2 hour. Let's say the HSR travels at 140KM/h so the trip will take 90 minutes plus another boarding and loading time of 30 minutes to make it 2 hr.

How much extra are you willing to pay to shave 1 to 90 minutes off your travel? That's the question. It's hard to imagine HSR doesn't cost at least twice as much as Red Arrow. So let's say $150 per ticket, so about $150 round trip more than Red Arrow for the speed and comfort of traveling by rail. Personally, I doubt a one way ticket will cost anything less than $200 on the HSR.

This is my thinking as well. I think to make it worthwhile, the train would have to get you from downtown to downtown in 90 minutes, all while not costing a ridiculous amount. Any more than 90 minutes, and the car becomes faster again for anyone whose origin or destination isn't quite downtown.

A train going only 140 km/h will have over two hours of time travelling at that speed, plus the time of slowing down and any stops. It would end up being 2.5 hours minimum between downtowns - which I don't see any use for. I think the train will have to be able to travel at least 250 km/h to be worthwhile. And at that speed, the whole line needs to be completely grade separated from everything else, and be on it's own dedicated track. Now you are talking many billions of dollars.

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

A train going only 140 km/h will have over two hours of time travelling at that speed, plus the time of slowing down and any stops.

140km/h isn't that much faster than driving at 110 or 120km/h. If you have more than one traveller, the economy of travelling by HSR completely breaks down. Seems like HSR will only for solo traveller at best. If it costs close to $1K for a family of four to travel by HSR between Cal and Edm, it's just a non starter.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by darklord700

I talked to people who travel between Cal-Edm every week and they say it all depends on the price of the ticket. Red Arrow costs about $70 and takes 3 to 3 1/2 hour. Let's say the HSR travels at 140KM/h so the trip will take 90 minutes plus another boarding and loading time of 30 minutes to make it 2 hr.

How much extra are you willing to pay to shave 1 to 90 minutes off your travel? That's the question. It's hard to imagine HSR doesn't cost at least twice as much as Red Arrow. So let's say $150 per ticket, so about $150 round trip more than Red Arrow for the speed and comfort of traveling by rail. Personally, I doubt a one way ticket will cost anything less than $200 on the HSR.

It depends on the funding model.

If they run it like Europe where the gov pays for all the costs of the construction and then hands it off to an ATB like arm of the government to run it then you are probably looking at $125 return for cattle class and $175-$250 for first class. The system could be run reliably with only 3-4 trains so the cost of operation wouldnt be crazy. The other price you are competing with is air travel so the $150-$250 doesnt seem to crazy IMO

A big hurdle is the current cost of gasoline, alot of reports in North America have said that gas would have to get to $1.85 CAD/L before wide acceptance of HSR by government. Now the AB gov could increase their gas tax by 0.10/L to narrow that gap but you are still 50c away from that estimate. The Feds could also increase their gas tax which is likely to happen in at least the next 10 years to change the economics in favour of rail as well

I think it will only happen when major improvements are needed to be made on Hwy2 for increased capacity and then and only then should they take the plunge with HSR by directing funding away from Hwy2 improvments and put into an HSR.

Also if anyone has actually tried to drive from downtown YYC to YEG it takes alot longer than 3 hours. On a good day is more like 3.5 hours.

[Knut]

I think it is likely cheaper just to build a dome over the QE2

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by Hesla

I think it is likely cheaper just to build a dome over the QE2

I think it'll be cheaper if people refrain from driving on QE2 on snowy days. We can't expect to live the same way 365 days a year being where we are geographically. If there are a few days in a year when we can't drive,go to school or to work, that's just the way it is. Don't think we should spend money on this railroad thing just so take we can keep commuting to Edmonton uninterrupted 365 days a year.

[Ace]

Assuming Edmonton eventually got a Car2go service, that could be a pretty good combo, jump off the train into a smart car. All good.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by HOWITZER

From the other thread...

A few issues.... First, you're asking 99% of the population to pay $50 a year for something that 1% would use and is already unnecessary to begin with. If I'm going to pay that money, I would like to see it spent on SE LRT and the next line Edmonton requires. That will benefit more people, take more vehicles off the road and have a far superior environmental impact than a HST project that, if funded by the government, is little more than waving your dick around trying to convince everyone of how big it is.

The problem with HST remains the lack of identifiable demand. Shipping companies wont use it. Anyone not going to Calgary or Edmonton wont. Most people not going to a point close to the terminals wont. Most business travelers would fly instead - if you're going to be tied down to someone else's schedule anyway with a requirement to rent a vehicle when you get there, why wouldn't you pay a little more for vastly greater departure options? This certainly won't attract tourists.

If a private company wants to bankrupt itself, it can go right ahead. Government should be spending our money on needs, not a Simpsonsesque monorail.

[RW99]

As much as I would like to see it as a tech and transpo nerd, it does not make sense. The only time I could see myself using it is for a sporting event, concernt or West Ed. And even then, the high cost of a ticket (assuming $200+) would make it a rare event.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by darklord700

140km/h isn't that much faster than driving at 110 or 120km/h. If you have more than one traveller, the economy of travelling by HSR completely breaks down. Seems like HSR will only for solo traveller at best. If it costs close to $1K for a family of four to travel by HSR between Cal and Edm, it's just a non starter.

Why does everyone assume that driving is the only way to get to Edmonton?

There are 31 flights to yeg --> yyc and 29 yyc --> yeg today alone.

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by Barnes

Why does everyone assume that driving is the only way to get to Edmonton?

There are 31 flights to yeg --> yyc and 29 yyc --> yeg today alone.

You add the 1 hour minimum you've to arrive at YYC or YEG, plus another 30 minutes minimum to go to and from Leduc airport. There's no time savings at all.

I did it once paid for by my company but I would never fly to YEG on my own dimes.

[Hack&Lube]

The problem is that due to how our cities are designed, both Calgary and Edmonton usually require travelers to have a car to conduct their activities.

Unless better, more economical, and more available alternatives (like Car2Go) are in place to service the high speed rail system, this will cause a problem.

The cost of a rail ticket and the cost of a vehicle rental and all the extra time and complication involved might outstrip all the benefits over just driving between the two cities yourself.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by darklord700

You add the 1 hour minimum you've to arrive at YYC or YEG, plus another 30 minutes minimum to go to and from Leduc airport. There's no time savings at all.

I did it once paid for by my company but I would never fly to YEG on my own dimes.

Yup. By all evidence flying between to two cities makes no sense yet there are ~60 flights per day. There are also 3 flights to and from Red Deer yyc today.

Add in the fact that you can go downtown to downtown or yyc to yeg or downtown to yyc/yeg, that is a lot more flexible than NE Calgary to Leduc and they trains are safer and more comfortable than cars or planes.

If you don't need your car on either end, I don't see why you wouldn't take the train.

[Resolute 14]

Cost. There is no way it would be more economical to take a train than to drive for one person. Expand to more people in your group, and you are looking at trading one hour of time (at most) for several hundred dollars saved.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Cost. There is no way it would be more economical to take a train than to drive for one person. Expand to more people in your group, and you are looking at trading one hour of time (at most) for several hundred dollars saved.

Then why are there ~60 flights a day? Did flying all of a sudden become cheap? Can you take your car on a plane nowadays? It takes longer to fly then drive and yet a more expensive yet a faster/cheaper option to flying is not economical?

[ranchlandsselling]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Cost. There is no way it would be more economical to take a train than to drive for one person. Expand to more people in your group, and you are looking at trading one hour of time (at most) for several hundred dollars saved.

Well, not sure you can just use a blanket statment like that...

Also things to consider, I've stayed in hotels in Edmonton because I don't want to drive back at night when I'm tired having drive up early in the morning. Also the time spent driving often means I have more work to do. I'm not one to get work done on a plane, so I'm not going to assume two hours on a train is two hours work time. But I could sleep, read, work, etc. vs drive and be negatively productive. If I could set up meetings in Edmonton around the downtown area I'd seriously consider making two trips via train every month returning the same day. It would facilitate business growth between the two cities. I could actually get transferred to Edmonton and if something like this existed I'd consider buying a condo in Edmonton and coming home on Thursday nights. Leave my car in Edmonton, come home and spend Fri-Sun with the family.