Religions : Legitimate vs otherwise

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by photon

Like I said, I think that's because most non-religious have put a lot of thought into why they think what they do and their positions are well practiced and polished.

That's it for sure. Most people, especially the further back you go, were born and taught (even indoctrinated) in a religious family or setting. Far more than the opposite I would imagine. So those that are atheist or at least far more secular probably already know the other side of the coin far better than those that are arguing the other point know about their side. Not saying that you (Finny61) don't or other religious people don't try to understand the other side, just that it's far more likely for someone to go from a state of 'belief' to 'non-belief' than the other way around and therefore have probably understood or encountered a lot of the ideas already.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I am in no way a religious guy...and certainly understand both theists and atheists way of approaching how they look at the subject.

What I really dont understand is the belittling that happens on both sides of the debate. Fundamentalism/extremism is seen on both sides and it leads to....nothing but more of the same.

No one should be 'forced" to have to listen to anyone espousing their beliefs if that person does not share them, but IMO there is little harm in politely declining to listen. (not accusing anyone of that in THIS thread) However, there is little doubt that there are some atheists that actually think that "flying spaghetti monster' is an appropriate comparison to what they believe god to be...when the person they are discussing with have deep and very real feelings/beliefs that god is a very legitimate entity (whatever form it may take). It's embarrassing IMO and makes it extremely difficult to have a real discussion. its like calling them completely stupid for having a belief system that the other does not comprehend. Where would humanity be if that was always the case? Arrogance usually stops any good discussion...and it appears on both sides of the debate, but moreso from the atheists.

There is a terrific book that covers this very subject and for anyone interested in seeing how these conversations can be carried out in a real way and for some really thought provoking stuff i suggest it as a mandatory read.

Its called "The reason for God: Belief in an age of skepticism" Certianly provided me with some answers as well as new questions...from both perspectives.

http://www.amazon.com/Reason-God-Bel.../dp/0525950494

From a reader review at Amazon...

I actually read that book tranny. Its a great book for hardcore believers in my mind. He makes a lot of repetitive justifications that you find here.
In my mind its written for apologists who wanted something more than the bible to read.

[Flames_Gimp]

[Cheese]

well I thought Id seen most of it....
This actually elicited a loud giggle.

Figure Skaters for Christ

Are there any straight male figure-skaters, aside from those in their Closets-4-Jesus®?
I can see God sitting on his pearly throne watching the Canadian Figure Skating Championships. <hmmm...yes very beautiful. I will cheer for the boys with sequined crosses on their silk outfits!>

[mikey_the_redneck]

I think religions are a bunch of garbage..................it establishes a "we vs. them" attitude and segregates groups of people from eachother.
I also question the integrity of most religions. It seems like they just change the rules on the fly to fit todays society.

I feel that religion was created to keep people under relative control.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by photon

In a hostile country.

Sometimes it's just a numbers game, you have to have the energy to roll a boulder uphill, and discussing religion here I'm sure can seem like that for the religious. Like I said, I think that's because most non-religious have put a lot of thought into why they think what they do and their positions are well practiced and polished.

Poppycock! The atheists on this sight have thought very little. They use mantra most of the time. Every evil in this world is attributed to religion and all religions are treated as all the same and therefore equally destructive. Atheists become offended(I would add hostile but, that is a constant state with them. They don't become hostile-they are hostile) whenever someone points out the gore and bloodshed atheist states have committed in the few modern instances where atheists have held power. Apparently its against the rules to lump them all together like they do all religious groups. The atheists scoff at the idea of a heaven or hell but, talk gloriously about the advancements the world will make once all religions have breathed their last. They wait with baited breath and post excitedly at every sign of the advancement towards this heaven on earth they are anticipating. They actually see mankind as evolving regardless of every evidence to suggest to contrary. They do this by seeing anyone who believes as they do as having advanced while seeing all evil as being caused by religion.

Cheese recently said: "I think most atheists would "let go" of the your in or out club, as long as theists played the same game. No door knocking, no phone calls, flyers or demands on our time. If we want to join we will find you." The truth is Cheese and his ilk are even more obnoxious about thrusting their beliefs on others as anyone I've ever met coming to my door or mailing me a flier. At the very least I've never encountered such unfounded angry in others religious pitches. The truth is Cheese and his belief system requires silence from all other belief systems because that is what is standing in the way of their "heaven on earth". I'm no Christian prophet but I predict a lot of future disappointments for the Cheeses and the Thors of this world. Voltaire predicted the end of religious systems within 100 years of his death. Instead his own print shop had ceased publishing his own writings and were printing bibles 100 years later. O Cheese and Thor will continue to see small advancements for their cause which will continue to delight them. But, if they come to their graves in their old age and still have clarity they will see that the world hasn't changed as much as they envisioned.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Poppycock! The atheists on this sight have thought very little.

Myself, I've done a fair amount of thinkin' on the question.

There are certain aspects of most religions that don't take a lot of thought to disbelieve though, I'll admit that. Things that can't be true in reality (human beings floating into the sky, a boat that apparently held millions of animals and insects) don't require much thought at all. Not nearly the mental gymnastics one would have to go through to actually believe these things happened/happen.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Cheese recently said: "I think most atheists would "let go" of the your in or out club, as long as theists played the same game. No door knocking, no phone calls, flyers or demands on our time. If we want to join we will find you." The truth is Cheese and his ilk are even more obnoxious about thrusting their beliefs on others as anyone I've ever met coming to my door or mailing me a flier. At the very least I've never encountered such unfounded angry in others religious pitches. The truth is Cheese and his belief system requires silence from all other belief systems because that is what is standing in the way of their "heaven on earth". I'm no Christian prophet but I predict a lot of future disappointments for the Cheeses and the Thors of this world. Voltaire predicted the end of religious systems within 100 years of his death. Instead his own print shop had ceased publishing his own writings and were printing bibles 100 years later. O Cheese and Thor will continue to see small advancements for their cause which will continue to delight them. But, if they come to their graves in their old age and still have clarity they will see that the world hasn't changed as much as they envisioned.

For the 1,000,000th time - atheism is not a "belief".

"Small advancements"? How many people 100 years ago would have said they were non-religious? 1%? Now it is something like 20%. The world is changing - dramatically so.

[Bagor]

[photon]

Same old tired arguments and straw men, accusations and rhetoric.. but not a lot of substance... your post in the polygamy thread was so good, you can do a lot better than this I think.

Pick a topic, this is a shotgun rant that's all over the map.

Though I guess the thread hasn't been about the OP's topic for pretty much the whole thread.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Myself, I've done a fair amount of thinkin' on the question.

There are certain aspects of most religions that don't take a lot of thought to disbelieve though, I'll admit that. Things that can't be true in reality (human beings floating into the sky, a boat that apparently held millions of animals and insects) don't require much thought at all. Not nearly the mental gymnastics one would have to go through to actually believe these things happened/happen.

I think the fact that so many of your group's arguments are based on generalizations indicates a lack of thought or at the very least a lack of willingness to argue in good faith. Also there doesn't seem to be a willingness to see the problems within your own belief system. Atheist beliefs have the same potential as Christian beliefs or Muslim beliefs to be hijacked for mischief. The twentieth century has proved that.

[peter12]

Atheism is kind of a silly catch-all term that really has no meaning whatsoever, except by saying that the individual in question does not have belief in a deity. In reality, the term represents a huge variety of personal beliefs and a ethical structures. If you are an Enlightenment atheist, you almost certainly have a lot in common with say, a millennarian Christian. It's really all about context and personal experience, something which should be applied to religious people as well.

[photon]

Originally Posted by peter12

Atheism is kind of a silly catch-all term that really has no meaning whatsoever, except by saying that the individual in question does not have belief in a deity. In reality, the term represents a huge variety of personal beliefs and a ethical structures.

I think your first sentence is spot on.. atheist means someone someone does not believe in God full stop.

Saying atheism is a belief system is like saying not believing in unicorns is a belief system.

Now a lot of atheists MAY share a belief system, but it is not necessarily so.

It's amusing that atheists are accused of generalizations, then they are all generalized to share a belief system when there's nothing about a belief system in atheism (Christianity claims to be one therefore it can be discussed as one).

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I think the fact that so many of your group's arguments are based on generalizations indicates a lack of thought or at the very least a lack of willingness to argue in good faith. Also there doesn't seem to be a willingness to see the problems within your own belief system. Atheist beliefs have the same potential as Christian beliefs or Muslim beliefs to be hijacked for mischief. The twentieth century has proved that.

I don't have a group.

As for lack of thought, besides being an insult, the implication seems to be "if you just thought about it more, you'd believe it. You just aren't thinking".

Luckily, the very opposite is true. The more people "think" about religion, including their own, the less they tend to believe.

Re: generalizations, you'll have to be more specific. I gave a couple examples of things that can't happen in reality. Was I wrong? Can those things happen in reality?

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by troutman

For the 1,000,000th time - atheism is not a "belief".

"Small advancements"? How many people 100 years ago would have said they were non-religious? 1%? Now it is something like 20%. The world is changing - dramatically so.

I realize in your belief system that man is the nearest thing that comes to being a god. The thing is you are not my god and your words aren't gospel even if you repeat them 1 000 000 more times.

100 years ago atheism probably wasn't an option on most surveys and they probably numbered around the same numbers as Mormons. Atheism's inroads have been on the backs of ideologies such as socialism and communism. Both are closely related and are intolerant of opposing view points. They rightly see religion as a threat to their agendas.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by photon

I think your first sentence is spot on.. atheist means someone someone does not believe in God full stop.

Saying atheism is a belief system is like saying not believing in unicorns is a belief system.

Now a lot of atheists MAY share a belief system, but it is not necessarily so.

It's amusing that atheists are accused of generalizations, then they are all generalized to share a belief system when there's nothing about a belief system in atheism (Christianity claims to be one therefore it can be discussed as one).

Atheist thought does not simply exist in a vacuum free of framework or philosophy. There are certain philosophical milestones that make up an atheist's cognitive structure. I call that a belief. Now I accept that there is a wide variation among atheists, but in someway, atheists themselves are responsible for their own generalization. It'd be interesting to hear a more detailed description from atheists as to why they are atheists and how this fits into society. Darwin and astrophysics don't count for everything.

Actually, one of the things that I find most interesting among some atheists on this board is the way they capitalize "S"cience or the way they speak about science as if it is a stand-alone institution instead of a tool for discovery. Reminds me of positivism and Auguste Comte.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I realize in your belief system that man is the nearest thing that comes to being a god. The thing is you are not my god and your words aren't gospel even if you repeat them 1 000 000 more times.

100 years ago atheism probably wasn't an option on most surveys and they probably numbered around the same numbers as Mormons. Atheism's inroads have been on the backs of ideologies such as socialism and communism. Both are closely related and are intolerant of opposing view points. They rightly see religion as a threat to their agendas.

I'm not an atheist. Like atheists I do not have a "belief system", at least not in the way that you define it. My words are not gospel, but a fact is a fact.

Atheism's inroads have been on the backs of ideologies such as socialism and communism.

Not true.

I resist terms like "inroads" or advancement".

[peter12]

Originally Posted by troutman

I'm not an atheist. Like atheists I do not have a "belief system", at least not in the way that you define it. My words are not gospel, but a fact is a fact.

Atheism's inroads have been on the backs of ideologies such as socialism and communism.

Not true.

Probably right about the socialism. You could add classical liberalism.

[Bagor]

Nm

[photon]

No, atheist thought doesn't exist in a vacuum. Most people get their belief system from society around them and label it either by their religion, or some kind of fuzzy "be good" if not religious.

But among atheists that have thought about it, they'll put the normal labels to their moral framework.. secular humanist, libertarian, cultural Christian, pantheist, lots of words to describe the different parts of any given individual's belief system.

Maybe atheists are responsible for some generalization, but maybe it's just because that's a common banner that some people can gather under for a specific view that tends to get ignored in public thought and discussion.

I don't know if it's entirely atheists fault though, I don't know how many times I read about someone saying something negative about a religious position and they're automatically called an atheist.