Alberta to have $11.6 Billion surplus

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by JBR

Sign Langkow long term.

Not long term...by his last year he'll be a permanent bench warmer painting watercolors...

But I guess at least he paid for all the supplies himself.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Yes it is, that's why we elect people to make decisions for us. Otherwise we'd be having 10 referendums a day trying to decide Albertan policy.

Not quite sure how you can derive such a conclusion....

Perhaps that was worded poorly.

The gov't should not be appropriating taxpayer money to spend it in a manner that the gov't believes disposable income should be spent.

1) The tax revenue is not always disposable.

2) Gov't subsidies throw off the supply/demand system, I think we'd all agree there is way too much crappy music/tv/art/movies out there. The truly talented can't get attention from the masses because there is too much white noise drowning them out.

3) It is not the role of the gov't to spend taxpayer's disposable income for them. Arts have never fed the hungry or warmed the cold. It is a luxury, and therefore not in the scope of the gov't.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

This wasn't supposed to turn into hockey vs something else debate. Sorry for ratting on it because I love hockey as much as the next guy and even some more. Its just the most obsessed over, and usually to the exclusion of other things.

Very true, I'm in the same boat with what you said here.

Although, I would hope that people who don't want to support the arts here, will also agree that they would not be willing to support athletics - ie. hockey, on the same level either. If you do, then I want to hear an explanation as to what hockey brings that art doesn't - both are recreational activities with pyschologically-developing potential.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

What do you mean "keep suggesting?"

I brought it up once.



So when I was a kid, I saw tonnes of hockey players from Calgary getting commanded by the Queen of England to march through the gates of Buckingham Palace and perform. But you're right, we don't need anything but hockey...



Welcome to my world as a live sound engineer. Actually, considering your description, is that what you do as well?

This wasn't supposed to turn into hockey vs something else debate. Sorry for ratting on it because I love hockey as much as the next guy and even some more. Its just the most obsessed over, and usually to the exclusion of other things.

Once was enough, and i just hate the word "redneck", you really sell people of Alberta short with that stereotype.

Also never suggested there was no value in having a marching band. I am suggesting that there is more demand for hockey rinks, more kids inspire to play hockey, than be in a marching band. Therefore hockey rinks should be a bigger priority.

And i am not a sound engineer, but a software engineer, and i helped this theatre maintain a database of contacts and a email manager to send out invitations and newsletters, as well as online ticket request ect....All of this is beyond their financial means, but it is very important to help..I consider what i do "art" as well. I enjoy it, so i have no problem supporting places like this and offering my expertise for what they can afford.

I believe that corporations have a responsibility to help "artists" too. Take for example the dudes and their Rogers spot - that alone has done more for them then their Alberta Art Council Grant, not only did that give them national exposure, but Rogers also funded their video shoot for the song.

There are a lot of creative ways to help everyone, without going to big brother with your hand out....I think what goverment programs are in place, or good enough to help any Artist who is good at his craft succeed, more is always good, but not always realistic.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Gozer

3) Gov't should not be spending taxpayer's disposable income for them. And make no mistake, arts have never fed the hungry or warmed the cold. It is a luxury, and therefore not in the scope of the gov't.

Well, Franz Bibel's Ave Maria is one of the most incredible choral works ever written. It was composed in a concentration camp during the Nazi regime and performed in the dead of winter by the starving and freezing.

An extreme example I know, but art IS in fact essential to life.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Muta

I think we're takling about Calgary in general, with Albertan-made money... not from any federal coffers.

My beliefs on the issue aren't divided that narrowly.

Originally Posted by Muta

I still stand by my belief that the future doctors and scientists that Alberta produces will usually come from backgrounds in which art - of all sorts - is a regular element during their child / teenage upbringing. Again, culturally enriching experiences / mindsets spawn creativity and imagination later on that can translate into MANY DIFFERENT positive contributions from Alberta on not just a provincial, not just a national, but an INTERNATIONAL level.

And I stand by my belief that resourcefulness has more benefit than paint as a creative teaching tool. If you can find a way to be appreciated and rewarded as a sculptor on your own, you'll make a damn fine grown-up.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Once was enough, and i just hate the word "redneck", you really sell people of Alberta short with that stereotype.

Agreed, my apologies.

Also never suggested there was no value in having a marching band. I am suggesting that there is more demand for hockey rinks, more kids inspire to play hockey, than be in a marching band. Therefore hockey rinks should be a bigger priority.

You'd be surprised how many kids do both.

Also, to reiterate, the bands I speak of are not, have never been, and most likely will never be publicly funded. If that happened there would be too many rules and loop holes and political garbage to take care of.

And i am not a sound engineer, but a software engineer, and i helped this theatre maintain a database of contacts and a email manager to send out invitations and newsletters, as well as online ticket request ect....All of this is beyond their financial means, but it is very important to help..I consider what i do "art" as well. I enjoy it, so i have no problem supporting places like this and offering my expertise for what they can afford.

I like you more all the time. Seems have have a common trait in our personalities.

I believe that corporations have a responsibility to help "artists" too. Take for example the dudes and their Rogers spot - that alone has done more for them then their Alberta Art Council Grant, not only did that give them national exposure, but Rogers also funded their video shoot for the song.

Music Business is half music, half business. Its a product to be marketed. Absolutely big business should be sponsoring art!

There are a lot of creative ways to help everyone, without going to big brother with your hand out....I think what goverment programs are in place, or good enough to help any Artist who is good at his craft succeed, more is always good, but not always realistic.

If the artist isn't meant to be, no amount of money will help them.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

Well, Franz Bibel's Ave Maria is one of the most incredible choral works ever written. It was composed in a concentration camp during the Nazi regime and performed in the dead of winter by the starving and freezing.

An extreme example I know, but art IS in fact essential to life.

Life begets art, not the other way around.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Gozer

And I stand by my belief that resourcefulness has more benefit than paint as a creative teaching tool. If you can find a way to be appreciated and rewarded as a sculptor on your own, you'll make a damn fine grown-up.

I disagree again. By your logic, the only successful people are those who don't get any grants or bursaries for their efforts. This is quite one-sided.

How often do you see businessmen or women able to raise hundreds of thousands of dollars on their own and turn it into a successful business? Most have to go to the bank to get a loan, or borrow from investors - some even get entrepreneurship grants. People need outside help to turn their brainchild into a tangible good for society, and government grants do just that to help establish culture and creativity in Calgary, Alberta, and Canada.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Gozer

And I stand by my belief that resourcefulness has more benefit than paint as a creative teaching tool.

Best post of this thread. More important than begging for hand outs is learning how to manifest the means.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Gozer

My beliefs on the issue aren't divided that narrowly.

They might be if you research how much government money allocated to the arts go where.

Originally Posted by Gozer

And I stand by my belief that resourcefulness has more benefit than paint as a creative teaching tool. If you can find a way to be appreciated and rewarded as a sculptor on your own, you'll make a damn fine grown-up.

So you would agree, then, that a kid inspiring to play hockey can find his way to the NHL on his own as well? He'd make a damn fine grown-up too if he did, according to your logic.

Where is the money supposed to go then, if there is money to be dispersed for public interest due to a budget surplus? If you say doctors and scientists, then you have to support the arts as well - especially at the grassroots level. THAT, more than anything, is an investment in Alberta's future.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I disagree again. By your logic, the only successful people are those who don't get any grants or bursaries for their efforts. This is quite one-sided.

How often do you see businessmen or women able to raise hundreds of thousands of dollars on their own and turn it into a successful business? Most have to go to the bank to get a loan, or borrow from investors - some even get entrepreneurship grants. People need outside help to turn their brainchild into a tangible good for society, and government grants do just that to help establish culture and creativity in Calgary, Alberta, and Canada.

I thought we were talking about public funding helping the development of children? I'm not against anyone supporting / investing in the arts, I'm against the extent that the gov't has adopted this task.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Life begets art, not the other way around.

I think in a friggin concentration camp, at that point in their lives, it was in fact the other way round.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

Best post of this thread. More important than begging for hand outs is learning how to manifest the means.

But, they need materials to do so. Funding for the arts can provide that.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Muta

They might be if you research how much government money allocated to the arts go where.

If all that money was left in the private sector, a fraction of it would be spent where it is now. I'm not arguing that is right or wrong, I'm arguing that the gov't shouldn't be deciding that for us.

Originally Posted by Muta

Where is the money supposed to go then, if there is money to be dispersed for public interest due to a budget surplus? If you say doctors and scientists, then you have to support the arts as well - especially at the grassroots level. THAT, more than anything, is an investment in Alberta's future.

Don't take the tax revenue from family to being with, in the hope kids can spend more time with their families.
That's an investment in the future.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

I think in a friggin concentration camp, at that point in their lives, it was in fact the other way round.

I can't say that I have intelligent input on that, but I admire the human spirit more than I admire (whatever you're suggesting).

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Muta

But, they need materials to do so. Funding for the arts can provide that.

If buddy is meant to play the (insert whatever here) then it will happen one way or another.

I know musicians who had to steal their gear.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Gozer

I can't say that I have intelligent input on that, but I admire the human spirit more than I admire (whatever you're suggesting).

Whoa man, I totally didn't deserve a diss like that. Maybe theres been a miscommunication?

As I understand it, you implied that art is a by-product of life. And I said that under the circumstances, life happened to be a by-product of art (because thats all they had to live for at that point).

Better?

[FireFly]

Why can't they dole it out to the cities and rural areas and let them fund what they need? Sure you have to have fiscal investments, but what the people need are infrastructure investments. If the province said today, we're giving you 3 billion dollars to use in Calgary.... Do it. What would you do? Weren't we just talking about transit? Wasn't there just a thread on what would make the city better?

For me, that's transit. a 3 billion dollar investment in transit... Wow. What would 3 billion do for Edmonton? How would the rural areas divide their money and with the remainder, invest that. We're the ones paying for it. What do you want that would make your life better?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

Well, Franz Bibel's Ave Maria is one of the most incredible choral works ever written. It was composed in a concentration camp during the Nazi regime and performed in the dead of winter by the starving and freezing.

An extreme example I know, but art IS in fact essential to life.

How much money did the Nazi's spend to fund this work?