Help with my Ethics Assignment..

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

I'm in for that conversation--if you guys don't mind a secular/humanist freeloader bogarting your Guinness.

No Guinness for me. I'm addicted to McEwan's Scotch Ale.

[Azure]

And I'd like to be a fly on the wall for that conversation.

Do you go to church Textcritic?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Azure

And I'd like to be a fly on the wall for that conversation.

Do you go to church Textcritic?

Every week. Well, we didn't go today, as my mom was in town and we wanted to treat the family to Sunday brunch at Minter Gardens.

I attend a non-denomination contemporary evangelical church with my wife and kids.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Every week. Well, we didn't go today, as my mom was in town and we wanted to treat the family to Sunday brunch at Minter Gardens.

I attend a non-denomination contemporary evangelical church with my wife and kids.

Interesting.

What are your views in regards to the Baptist-driven prophetic outlook on Revalations?

Do you agree/disagree with it? What do you think of people like Hal Lindsey who have for years predicted the second coming...and for years has been wrong about it.

I have a lot of questions to ask if you don't have a problem with it.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Azure

...What are your views in regards to the Baptist-driven prophetic outlook on Revalations?...

It is programmatic, and is very much a product of the doctrine of inerrency from the 18th–19th century in American religious culture. The view that will choose to see John's Revelation as an acurate unfolding of the future end of the world is prone to view universal history according to a series of dispensations. This view reads Revelation much like it would read any book, in such a way that the prophecies accord with actual events in the past, present, and future; it is called "dispensationalism".

Originally Posted by Azure

...Do you agree/disagree with it? What do you think of people like Hal Lindsey who have for years predicted the second coming...and for years has been wrong about it.

I totally disagree with it, because it misunderstands the origins and function of the Book of Revelation. John's "vision" from the Island of Patmos fits the mould of a classical Jewish Apocalypse: an eschatological piece of dogma intended to provide criticism against present political/religious institutions in an effort to give hope to the future for the persecuted minority. Revelation was written during a period in which the Church and Christians endured persecution at the hands of the Romans, and it should be read in this light—it is informative to note that there was much debate for centuries about the status of Revelation, and it very nearly missed being excluded from the first official Christian canon of Scriptures. The "prophecies" in Revelation usually accord with events and circumstances contemporary with the author, and they are written in such a way that the pseudonymous figure "John" appears to have accuratley predicted the future. Because of this, the future destruction of the "Beast" and the "whore of Babylon"—which are probably Roman institutions—are viewed to be reliable, and they present the most immediate relief for Christians who suffer for their faith.
I used to subscribe to Lindsay's view that read the Book of Revelation like a comic book about the end of the world (I even owned a comic book based on his two best sellers The Late, Great Planet Earth and There's a New World Coming!); that if I paid close enough attention to the evening news I could watch John's predictions unfold before my eyes. I am no expert in reading Revelation, and I find it a very confusing and bewildering book (in this, it is not at all dissimilar from other Jewish Apocalyptic works like the Book of Daniel, the "Animal Apocalypse" from I Enoch, 3 Baruch, and the War Scroll from Qumran). But I know enough to know that one should not use it as a guidebook to the end of the World.

Originally Posted by Azure

I have a lot of questions to ask if you don't have a problem with it.

No problem whatsoever. Fire away!

[Azure]

Very interesting.

Hal Lindsey is only one person that comes to mind....as I grew up, or even as my parents grew up, he was the dominant figure in regards to the 'endtimes' culture that generated a lot of debate in my household.

There is a Bible college up north in Three Hills...called Prairie Bible Institute...and they stress the prophetic viewpoint of Revelations 'a lot.'

I've talked to a few Baptists regarding their viewpoint, and the one question that they cannot answer is how that people like yourself, with a knowledgeable viewpoint on the Bible have trouble understanding the basic principle behind what John wrote, yet the Baptists will still stand behind their prophetic theory.

I recently talked to a fellow that attended PBI, and he was alarmed at how some of the professors actually 'brainwashed', the exact word he used....students into believing this drivel regarding the 'endtimes.'

Ben Ezra first penned this 'futuristic' school of thought....and people like Hal Lindsey, Tim Lahaye, and Jerry B. Jenkins have driven the agenda home with their books.

Another question. Have you read the Left Behind novels? Personally I think they're a load of hogwash, because even though the books might be presented as a 'book'...there are people out there that use them to further their belief. Sad, really.

Its hilarious listening to these writers has they claim to have figured out what John was talking about. Never-mind the viewpoint that many of the things mentioned in Revelations, such as the mark of the beast...can also be taken in a spiritual manner, where instead of the mark of the beast being a mark implanted on your forehead once the anti-christ has risen and taken power over the world, it is seen by many, specifically the Ana-Baptists, as more of a spiritual mark.

Just reading through Wikipedia and the entries they have on Hal Lindsey and others...its alarming the 'predictions' they've made....ALL of which have yet to happen.

Y2K? Planet alignment in 1986? EU producing the Anti-Christ? No wonder so many non-religious people out there are driven away from the idea of Christianity. We have a bunch of fools up on the stage trying to convince people of their theories.

Like I said, sad.

And even worse when you have family members involved in this crap.

[madisonbtb]

PTI --
I needed some new internet sports scenery to pass the day so I've been borrowing your board. This has been a very interesting and at times very enlightening thread. There are some people I would love to sit and have a debate with on here (not a fight, but an actual sit down and hash out all the problems of the world kind of debate). I've only had dealings with many of you in regards to the Andrei threads, so this has been nice to read some of these things. Gives a whole new perspective to some of the impressions I had already formed.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Azure

Hal Lindsey is only one person that comes to mind....as I grew up, or even as my parents grew up, he was the dominant figure in regards to the 'endtimes' culture that generated a lot of debate in my household...

Lindsay was a favourite in my household as well growing up. I remember once that Oprah had featured a number of "prophets" on a show, and my mother was livid that Lindsay was not included. As for debate? There never was any such thing while I was growing up: the Book of Revelation, after all, speaks of plagues of armour plated locusts; such a clear early prediction of helicopter is not to be questioned, and the only "sane" thing to do is to read Revelation like one would the instruction manual that came with their VCR (remember those things?).

Originally Posted by Azure

There is a Bible college up north in Three Hills...called Prairie Bible Institute...and they stress the prophetic viewpoint of Revelations 'a lot.'

I've talked to a few Baptists regarding their viewpoint, and the one question that they cannot answer is how that people like yourself, with a knowledgeable viewpoint on the Bible have trouble understanding the basic principle behind what John wrote, yet the Baptists will still stand behind their prophetic theory.

My father is an alumnist from PBI, and attended back when L.E. Maxwell was still preaching regularly in the "Tabernacle". My wife's best friend's father is a former pastor who also received credentials from there. Years ago, when I had plans on entering full-time Christian ministry, I apprenticed under a Calgary pastor in a Baptist church who was a graduate of both the "Institute" and the now defunct Graduate School. I am intimately familiar with PBI.

Originally Posted by Azure

Another question. Have you read the Left Behind novels?

God, NO!

Originally Posted by Azure

Personally I think they're a load of hogwash, because even though the books might be presented as a 'book'...there are people out there that use them to further their belief.

Whether they choose to admit it or not, the conservative evangelical canon of "Scripture" is not really closed. The practice of appending works of secondary literature and appealing to them as "authoritative" has been going on for decades. The Fundamentals edited and published by R.A. Torrey functioned as something of a canon expansion in the early part of the twentieth century. But more recently, and in addition to the work done first by Lindsay—who was largely dependent upon the writings of the radical Herbert W. Armstrong—and LaHaye and Jenkins, during the early to mid nineties, two novels by Christian author Frank Peretti were received in the same sort of way.

This Present Darkness published in 1986 and the sequel Piercing the Darkness in 1988 presented a very literalistic interpretation of "spritual warfare" as an ever-present combat between angels and demons. His work was fiercely critical of the so-called "New Age movement"—particularly the branch of thinking that was associated with Shirley MacLaine's Out on a Limb—and treated the "spiritual plain" as a parallel dimension to the tangible, in which angels were fighting an epic war on behalf of God and his allies: "biblical", evangelical Christians. Their battles were wages against Satan and his minions, as well as everyone else on the planet whose religious and cultural views were in contravention to Peretti's theology. The books had a huge impact on me as a teenager, and were instrumental in shaping my beliefs about God, spirits and spirituality, eschatology, and basic biblical interpretation. I was not alone, as I can vividly recall that during this time "spiritual matters" became a topic of vogue in the evangelical ghetto. From books to music to sermons to Sunday School and Bible studies, Peretti's influence was palpable in my world.

Evangelicals do not like to talk about it, but their strict adherence to "Scripture alone" is just as susceptible to cultural shifts as anyone's own religious philosophy.

Originally Posted by Azure

...No wonder so many non-religious people out there are driven away from the idea of Christianity. We have a bunch of fools up on the stage trying to convince people of their theories.

Like I said, sad.

And even worse when you have family members involved in this crap.

I hear you. I am presently writing my doctoral dissertation about the perceptrion of the Prophet Jeremiah and the Jeremiah literature in Second Temple Judaism, and I fear talking about my own work with my family. I once ventured into a conversation with my mom about my own changing faith, and quickly realized that I had bitten off more than I could chew. I find my family largely unreasonable, in effect, frequently "brainwashed", and largely typical of mainstream evangelicalism: where people do not read very widely, and are apt to believe whatever their preachers will tell them.

[photon]

It's funny, I just finished cleaning out some old old boxes of books in my office and quite a few of them included the titles you guys have been talking about plus more of the same; I used to be very much into all that end times stuff. I even have copies of and have read most of the Left Behind stuff.

Now I have them in their own box, conflicted as to give them to my parents (which will open up the "why don't you want them anymore" line of questions), sell them (so they can spread their own special brand of FUD elsewhere), or just toss them (destroying a book deeply goes against my nature).

And it's nice to hear you say that about Revelations Textcritic, I listened to a series of lectures by Bart D. Ehrman, "The Making of the New Testament Canon" that was very educational (I thought) about things like that (he said basically the same thing as you did about the "purpose" of Revelations).

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Lindsay was a favourite in my household as well growing up. I remember once that Oprah had featured a number of "prophets" on a show, and my mother was livid that Lindsay was not included. As for debate? There never was any such thing while I was growing up: the Book of Revelation, after all, speaks of plagues of armour plated locusts; such a clear early prediction of helicopter is not to be questioned, and the only "sane" thing to do is to read Revelation like one would the instruction manual that came with their VCR (remember those things?).

Yeah those things. They were still popular while I grew up. Not so much nowadays.

There is debate with my parents....I think we actually agree on our viewpoint regarding Revelations. My dad has always maintained the 'eye has not seen....' opinion in regards to what John has wrote. I guess I took that viewpoint from him as I grew older,

My moms side of the family, especially my Grandfather really stresses the prophetic outlook. For a while, when I was younger I would listen and even believe what he was telling me. But as I grew older, the one thing that always bothered me was how people like Hal Lindsey could make predictions about the second-coming, and people will believe him despite his 'lies.'

Remember when bar codes came out - credit cards? My mom sometimes told me absolute horror stories of how those simply progressions in technology were viewed as 'proof' that the end-times were here....and anyone who wanted to avoid the Tribulation should avoid using barcodes, credit cards...anything where the government can supposedly control you.

My father is an alumnist from PBI, and attended back when L.E. Maxwell was still preaching regularly in the "Tabernacle". My wife's best friend's father is a former pastor who also received credentials from there. Years ago, when I had plans on entering full-time Christian ministry, I apprenticed under a Calgary pastor in a Baptist church who was a graduate of both the "Institute" and the now defunct Graduate School. I am intimately familiar with PBI.

Interesting.

I do not know when L.E. Maxwell was there, so I have no idea during which years your father attended.

Any sort of time-frame you can help me with? My Grandfather is also an alumnist from PBI, although I am unsure of the specific years he was there.

God, NO!

Good.

Whether they choose to admit it or not, the conservative evangelical canon of "Scripture" is not really closed. The practice of appending works of secondary literature and appealing to them as "authoritative" has been going on for decades. The Fundamentals edited and published by R.A. Torrey functioned as something of a canon expansion in the early part of the twentieth century. But more recently, and in addition to the work done first by Lindsay—who was largely dependent upon the writings of the radical Herbert W. Armstrong—and LaHaye and Jenkins, during the early to mid nineties, two novels by Christian author Frank Peretti were received in the same sort of way.

I am well aware of those two novels. They have also dominated many a discussion while I grew up. I have not read them myself....simply cannot find the time these days.

This Present Darkness published in 1986 and the sequel Piercing the Darkness in 1988 presented a very literalistic interpretation of "spritual warfare" as an ever-present combat between angels and demons. His work was fiercely critical of the so-called "New Age movement"—particularly the branch of thinking that was associated with Shirley MacLaine's Out on a Limb—and treated the "spiritual plain" as a parallel dimension to the tangible, in which angels were fighting an epic war on behalf of God and his allies: "biblical", evangelical Christians. Their battles were wages against Satan and his minions, as well as everyone else on the planet whose religious and cultural views were in contravention to Peretti's theology. The books had a huge impact on me as a teenager, and were instrumental in shaping my beliefs about God, spirits and spirituality, eschatology, and basic biblical interpretation. I was not alone, as I can vividly recall that during this time "spiritual matters" became a topic of vogue in the evangelical ghetto. From books to music to sermons to Sunday School and Bible studies, Peretti's influence was palpable in my world.

You know, reading your review...I'm going to have to sit down and read those 2 books.

I usually try to stay away from 'spiritual warfare' novels...as they don't appeal to my interests.

Evangelicals do not like to talk about it, but their strict adherence to "Scripture alone" is just as susceptible to cultural shifts as anyone's own religious philosophy.

Absolutely agree.

I hear you. I am presently writing my doctoral dissertation about the perceptrion of the Prophet Jeremiah and the Jeremiah literature in Second Temple Judaism, and I fear talking about my own work with my family. I once ventured into a conversation with my mom about my own changing faith, and quickly realized that I had bitten off more than I could chew. I find my family largely unreasonable, in effect, frequently "brainwashed", and largely typical of mainstream evangelicalism: where people do not read very widely, and are apt to believe whatever their preachers will tell them.

Sad, really.

You have an extremely interesting outlook on the Bible and Christianity as a whole. I don't think they understand what exactly they are missing.

[madisonbtb]

What is the predominant religion in Canada?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by photon

It's funny, I just finished cleaning out some old old boxes of books in my office and quite a few of them included the titles you guys have been talking about plus more of the same; I used to be very much into all that end times stuff. I even have copies of and have read most of the Left Behind stuff.

What was your opinion at the time?

And what changed your viewpoint(if you had one)?

Now I have them in their own box, conflicted as to give them to my parents (which will open up the "why don't you want them anymore" line of questions), sell them (so they can spread their own special brand of FUD elsewhere), or just toss them (destroying a book deeply goes against my nature).

I usually wouldn't agree with destroying books either....but crap like that has no place in any house-hold.

I had family members who tried to push those books on me once upon a time, and I basically told them that if any of them fall into my hands....I'll use them as fireplace material.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by madisonbtb

What is the predominant religion in Canada?

Christianity.

What does that have to do with the topic at hand?

[photon]

Originally Posted by Azure

What was your opinion at the time?

And what changed your viewpoint(if you had one)?

I was totally programmed to think it was all true. Every time I heard about earthquakes on the news, it was fulfillment of prophecy that the earth was groaning for the end times. War on the news? Fulfillment of prophecy of wars and rumours of wars.

What started to change my viewpoint I think was just finally growing up and taking a critical look at what I believed and why I believed it. Was there another way to interpret the scripure being used to support whatever doomsday stuff was being thrown out? Stuff like how did the Bible come into being.

Even things like what the expectation of an evangelical lifestyle is supposed to be like and what my personal experience actually was. That's getting far away from the topic though into a more general criticism of evangelical Christianity.

Funny you mention the stuff about bar codes and credit cards, I remember being in church listening to the pastor and youth pastors say the same stuff, it was all indications of the end! I think at that point I was already seeing the cracks in what I had built in my mind.

I usually wouldn't agree with destroying books either....but crap like that has no place in any house-hold.

I had family members who tried to push those books on me once upon a time, and I basically told them that if any of them fall into my hands....I'll use them as fireplace material.

It's scary though how well that stuff has sold. Peretti's stuff maybe not so much, but the Left Behind stuff, wow. And it's pervasive, did you read about how they were going to be including copies of that Left Behind game (an RTS game based on the first few Left behind books) in care packages going out to soldiers serving overseas?? CRAZY!

[photon]

Originally Posted by madisonbtb

What is the predominant religion in Canada?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Canada

The most recent census #'s aren't out yet, so the 2001 numbers there are the most recent I think.

[madisonbtb]

Originally Posted by Azure

Christianity.

What does that have to do with the topic at hand?

i meant what specific church of christianity (catholic, lutheran, etc). any religion that believes in christ is christian. but catholic would never be mistaken for evangelical or interdenominational. the topic at hand has been revelations, bibles verses, church vs religion, end of the world. i was just curious what the predominant one was in canada. i know next to nothing about canada other than hockey, captain tractor and prescription drugs which definately has nothing to do with the topic at hand. i guess i'm the kind of person who asks questions when i want to know more. didn't realize it was that odd.

[madisonbtb]

Originally Posted by photon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Canada

The most recent census #'s aren't out yet, so the 2001 numbers there are the most recent I think.

No, no. That was perfect and totally answered my question. Thank you! I wasn't taking a poll or trying to make value judgement -- just trying to educate myself.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by photon

I was totally programmed to think it was all true. Every time I heard about earthquakes on the news, it was fulfillment of prophecy that the earth was groaning for the end times. War on the news? Fulfillment of prophecy of wars and rumours of wars.

Same here.

I bet it was bad during the Cold War....Russia was posturing to move against Israel; Russia was the 'great whore' that Revelations mentioned. Hal Lindsey spoke about all that. In fact he said the Cold War would never stop.

And people still read his books? *groan*

What started to change my viewpoint I think was just finally growing up and taking a critical look at what I believed and why I believed it. Was there another way to interpret the scripure being used to support whatever doomsday stuff was being thrown out? Stuff like how did the Bible come into being.

Absolutely.

Many people will argue that the doomsday approach to Revelations 'is' critical thinking. Yet these days, with Christianity having be SO dominated by these fools with the biggest mouths, I've come to believe that the mainstream believe IS the apocalyptic viewpoint, while the critical thinkers are those who are still searching for answers.

Really, we have no idea what Revelations means. Just reading through Wikipedia, and its entry on the subject, there are numerous explanations.

Even things like what the expectation of an evangelical lifestyle is supposed to be like and what my personal experience actually was. That's getting far away from the topic though into a more general criticism of evangelical Christianity.

Another time, another discussion.

Funny you mention the stuff about bar codes and credit cards, I remember being in church listening to the pastor and youth pastors say the same stuff, it was all indications of the end! I think at that point I was already seeing the cracks in what I had built in my mind.

Ridiculous, eh? I can't believe people actually preach that stuff to their audience.

Computers at one point were the 'beast' as well....now the whole world can't live without it, and this prophetic viewpoint has been driven 'further' by the exact thing they once preached against. Computers and the internet. Funny how that works.

It's scary though how well that stuff has sold. Peretti's stuff maybe not so much, but the Left Behind stuff, wow. And it's pervasive, did you read about how they were going to be including copies of that Left Behind game (an RTS game based on the first few Left behind books) in care packages going out to soldiers serving overseas?? CRAZY!

Yeah I saw that.

I don't believe for a second that those books are harmless. The thoughts/ideas involved are dictating popular Christian culture.

I know Sunday School classes that are showing the videos as 'fact.'

Just a book? Right.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by madisonbtb

i meant what specific church of christianity (catholic, lutheran, etc). any religion that believes in christ is christian. but catholic would never be mistaken for evangelical or interdenominational. the topic at hand has been revelations, bibles verses, church vs religion, end of the world. i was just curious what the predominant one was in canada. i know next to nothing about canada other than hockey, captain tractor and prescription drugs which definately has nothing to do with the topic at hand. i guess i'm the kind of person who asks questions when i want to know more. didn't realize it was that odd.

I apologize then.

I didn't realize in what context you were asking the question.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Azure

Ridiculous, eh? I can't believe people actually preach that stuff to their audience.

Computers at one point were the 'beast' as well....now the whole world can't live without it, and this prophetic viewpoint has been driven 'further' by the exact thing they once preached against. Computers and the internet. Funny how that works.

I remember reading about stuff like that years ago. IIRC we were all going to get micro chips implanted under our skin as a means of tracking. Those that did, well.....

Some guy showed up at my old church some years ago promoting a book he had written. Half way through his speech I burst out loud laughing. I had to leave the sanctuary to avoid further embarrassing myself. I couldn't believe the number of members that bought into that garbage.