The Real Iraq

[Claeren]

Originally Posted by HOZ

I think Africa is a pretty good case for how little America cares to intervene physically for the 'good of the people'.

Invade a Muslim Oil producing nation? I think you and the rest of you anti-war people have guaranteed that will not happen again


Hussein was activily 'killing massive amounts of his own people'? Compared to what? Canada?

Please inform the RCMP that we have a genocidal murder(s) on the losse that has killed 2 million plus people and has forced out 3-4 million from their homes


I would venture a guess that FAR more Iraqi's have died in the 3(?) years of American occupation (in order to 'maintain stability') then in the 10 years prior of Saddams rule (in order to 'maintain stability'), and if not FAR more then certainly it is within comparable realms. Does that mean Bush needs to be removed from power?

I have 2 million for Hussien. How many people have died during and since the American invasion? Better yet split it up into those thatthe American soldiers have actually killed versus the terrorists!!!!

I WIN

2 million? From what source? Fox news? The O'Reilly Factor?

Or are you including all the people that died of starvation thanks to sanctions or to the Iraq-Iran war (Which was more then 10 years ago BTW) thanks to messy American-Russian actions in the region?

By what means did Saddam kill these 200,000 people a year for the last 10 years?

I am NOT saying he is a saint, the only good thing about this war is that he is gone, but he was not Hitler either.


And just because us silly 'anti-war people' (Who were right about what a bad idea the war would be BTW) are working to prevent another 'Iraq' does not mean that oil was not one of the the prime reasons in the first place. And frankly i think Vietnam, despite the revised history of blind a patriot on this board, proves that good lessons in humility do not stick with Americans for very long.


Claeren.

[HOZ]

200,000? Where do you get yours? Same place Lanny gets his conspiracy theories from?

Body Count has 45,000 as it's max.

From 1992 - his fall Hussien has easily killed more than 1 million. 400,000 in mass graves have been found and hundreds of thousands dying because he chose to build palaces and withold medical supplies (actually profit from selling them onthe black market) rather than submit to unhindered weapons inspections.

Hussien displaced 2 million people from their homes int hat period as well. In stark contract to the 1-3 million Iraqis that have RETURNED home since the American lead invasion.

I WIN

[White Doors]

I WIN

yep!

haha

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by HOZ

200,000? Where do you get yours? Same place Lanny gets his conspiracy theories from?

Body Count has 45,000 as it's max.

From 1992 - his fall Hussien has easily killed more than 1 million. 400,000 in mass graves have been found and hundreds of thousands dying because he chose to build palaces and withold medical supplies (actually profit from selling them onthe black market) rather than submit to unhindered weapons inspections.

Hussien displaced 2 million people from their homes int hat period as well. In stark contract to the 1-3 million Iraqis that have RETURNED home since the American lead invasion.

I WIN

Lets see your source.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Hussien displaced 2 million people from their homes int hat period as well. In stark contract to the 1-3 million Iraqis that have RETURNED home since the American lead invasion.

I WIN

Hussein displaced 2 million Iraqis, but more than that returned home? Wow, that's some kind of trick. Was David Blayne and a globe full of water involved in this illusion?

Oh, and you're numbers are a wee bit off (factor of 4 to 10 times).

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=11136

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...032801963.html

http://www.refugeesinternational.org...le/detail/1552

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&sect...=31&m=7&y=2003

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/li...0-3de4cfaf.htm

"According to the British government and the United Nations, that is about five percent of the 500-thousand Iraqis displaced worldwide."

You lose.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Lets see your source.

HOZ is full of crap at the best of times, but this is one even he can't miss. This site documents each death as best it can.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Scott Ritter is a smoke screen here. It's the same old tactic of attack and discredit the individual rather than the evidence presented. Ritter was but one person involved with UNSCOM, and even if he was proven to be corrupt (which is very very debateable in its own right) there is still an entire body that stated the same thing. The inspectors all said that everything was going as planned and that destruction of agents and equipment was taking place as expected. Yes, it was a cat and mouse game, but weapons inspections always had been. All you have to do is examine SALT to see how many games the AMericans and Soviets played with each other. They set the standard and everyone else lives up to that standard.

Whoa Lanny. Ritter changed his stance, two years AFTER the inspections ended. So if the inspectors were satisfied that Iraq did not have any WMD, after they were done inspecting which I believe was in 1998, then Ritter, with the same information(as some posters feel he gets inside information) should have stated the exact same thing. But he didn't, and thats why he is either lying one way, or is a complete idiot.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

Whoa Lanny. Ritter changed his stance, two years AFTER the inspections ended. So if the inspectors were satisfied that Iraq did not have any WMD, after they were done inspecting which I believe was in 1998, then Ritter, with the same information(as some posters feel he gets inside information) should have stated the exact same thing. But he didn't, and thats why he is either lying one way, or is a complete idiot.

Not going to deny Ritter's strange behavior, but as I pointed out, Ritter was but one cog in the machine.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Not going to deny Ritter's strange behavior, but as I pointed out, Ritter was but one cog in the machine.

Can't argue with that.

I think I proved my point though, Looger, if you care to read this thread. Ritter does not have enough credibility that you can refer to him to justify your arguement.

[Claeren]

Originally Posted by HOZ

200,000? Where do you get yours? Same place Lanny gets his conspiracy theories from?

Body Count has 45,000 as it's max.

From 1992 - his fall Hussien has easily killed more than 1 million. 400,000 in mass graves have been found and hundreds of thousands dying because he chose to build palaces and withold medical supplies (actually profit from selling them onthe black market) rather than submit to unhindered weapons inspections.

Hussien displaced 2 million people from their homes int hat period as well. In stark contract to the 1-3 million Iraqis that have RETURNED home since the American lead invasion.

I WIN

400,000 in mass graves after being killed directly by his actions?? Which actions on which dates?


And those dying through starvation and loss of their homes. Um... Bush runs the most desparate nation on earth where despite massive hoarded wealth thousands die in ghetto's each year, millions of women and children live well below the poverty line, and where that entire subclass is not only ignored but often blamed for their own institutionalized plight. Not to mention the fact he ruled over one of the greatest disasters in American leadership where largely due to his nepotism he lost an entire major metropolis!! Or where despite a large deficit financed war-costs, unprecedented tax cuts have primarily targeted the richest of his friends. Or where he himself has signed the death warrrents of hundreds of 'offenders' including minors, the handicapped, and those suspected of not have had a fair trial? Oh, or maybe the imprisonment/repression/contempt of the press where you have journalists going to jail and all press conferences are carefully scripted?

If you want to get into the harm caused by extenuating circumstances and elitest greed the Bush administration is not your best defence. Of course you would have to be objective to see that...

The difference in quality of life between the poorest and richest Iraqi's was hardly different then between the highest and lowest in the USA itself (In both cases disgusting) and the only reason you disagree is because you grossly underestimate the sad state of affairs in much of the poorest neighbourhoods of America. '

Basically it comes down to hypocracy and when you are as hypocritic as America is you have next to no legitmacy for your message when you start the preaching it to the foreign masses you seek to subtly control.

The fact that America's/Bush's entire plan was built up on being on the ethical high ground means that the everything was doomed form the start - and now always will be going forward.


Claeren.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Azure

I think I proved my point though, Looger, if you care to read this thread. Ritter does not have enough credibility that you can refer to him to justify your arguement.

does that mean wikipedia does?

seriously though, point taken, but i really don't have to look far to find how badly the US pooched the UNSCOM situation.

here's the 'trusted' mr. annan going wishy-washy, from defending the US to questioning its involvement:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/events/cr...ews/250126.stm


The reports said that Mr Annan had evidence of a systematic operation in which American agents were able to listen to secret communications between the Iraqi security bodies responsible for protecting President Saddam Hussein. The stories sparked a diplomatic storm and lent credence to Iraqi claims that UN weapons inspectors were US spies.
Mr Annan's spokesman, Fred Eckhard, said: "We not only have no convincing evidence of these allegations, we have no evidence of any kind. We have only rumours.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/379458.stm

In a BBC interview, Mr Annan said it was worrying that the Americans had never denied the allegations, which he admitted had not only undermined the UN inspection agency, Unscom, but also future disarmament regimes.

UNSCOM was compromised, all the crooked crooks agree and the media had been grilling them for years aboot it.

everyone involved is compromised.

US apologists are just going to have to get over the FACT that they were caught red-handed. tough luck, but that excuse is not usable, don't even try it.

[Azure]

does that mean wikipedia does?

For God sakes. I "only" used the quotes.

Prove to me that those quotes were wrong.

US apologists are just going to have to get over the FACT that they were caught red-handed. tough luck, but that excuse is not usable, don't even try it.

In other words, the US is the reason Saddam killed 1.5 million of his own people?

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Azure

In other words, the US is the reason Saddam killed 1.5 million of his own people?

where the hell do you get this crap?

i am done in this thread.

[White Doors]

Yes Claeren, you're correct - Bush = Saddam and Iraq = USA.

AND

Of course you would have to be objective to see that...

riiight...

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

In other words, the US is the reason Saddam killed 1.5 million of his own people?

No, that's not what he is saying. What he is saying is that if the Americans were so damn concerned about Saddam Hussein killing his own people they would have removed him from power in 1991. The fact that they allowed him to remain in power, when they had the okay from the international community and a strong coalition to take him out, speaks volumes.

I've always had this question that I have not been able to find a Bush supporter to answer with any sort of thought, so maybe you'd like to give a well reasoned response to it? If the Bush administration is so intent on spreading democracy and halting oppressive regimes in the middle east, why have they not made a move on Saudi Arabia? Oppressive regime? Check! Top offender of human rights? Check! Connection to 9/11? BIG CHECK!!! Responsible for the majority of the instability in the region? Another BIG CHECK!!! Why has the United States not made a move on this country that has a laundry list of evils that supposedly prompted the invasion of Iraq and has caused the saber rattling toward Iran? Wouldn't have anything to do with the fella that Bush likes to spend so much time holding hands with would it?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by White Doors

Yes Claeren, you're correct - Bush = Saddam and Iraq = USA.

AND



riiight...

Wow, nice "political" answer. Thanks for your input "congressman".

[Claeren]

Originally Posted by White Doors

Yes Claeren, you're correct - Bush = Saddam and Iraq = USA.

AND



riiight...

This from the guy who posts Ireland's debt to GDP ratio and claims it is America's to prove a point!


I don't expect you to be able to distinguish what i am saying (I have faith that HOZ will, although he will disagree) but i never said that USA = Iraq or Saddam = Bush. All i said was that the realtive wealth between the rich in poor in each nation is not much different, loads of people suffer in each, and that if you want to include every frikkin person who died in Iraq for any reason as being Saddam's fault then you have to hold Bushies regime to the same standard. In other words i am saying that is NOT a good way to add the numbers up - but you are not smart enough to catch it.

The larger point follows the same line that Lanny is following above. If America actually cared about democracy or the plight of Iraq's people why have let Saudi Arabia continue its oppressive regime?? Or Sudan? Or Nigeria? Or N.Korea?

In fact is, IF America/Bush/the right-wing was THAT concerned about human suffering they would not be spending hundreds of billions on outdated military technology's (state of the art but obsolete) and instead would be helping their own people, not to mention those suffering far far more then Iraqi's were even at the worst of times.


Sincere 'goodness' was never part of the equation for war, it just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Claeren.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Looger

where the hell do you get this crap?

i am done in this thread.

You've said that about 5 times.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

And the hits just keep on coming for the military and the Bush admin.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060528/...investigations

The quagmire is almost complete as the military experiences the Iraqi version of My Lai. This is what happens when you let a bunch of civilians run the military and replace every general in sight.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

And the hits just keep on coming for the military and the Bush admin.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060528/...investigations

The quagmire is almost complete as the military experiences the Iraqi version of My Lai. This is what happens when you let a bunch of civilians run the military and replace every general in sight.

Add to that this:

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/latest...81326/1e4910ac

... and it really makes one wonder just what the hell they think the end result is going to be.