Mayor Dave steals our money so he can harrass bums, hobos, and other transients!

[jolinar of malkshor]

Thanks for the info troutman. I think people have a lot less tolerance for beggers than people who are homeless. I think thats the biggest arguement in this threat.

[troutman]

Panhandling: A Little Understanding

http://www.nationalhomeless.org/panhandle.html

I decided to write this article after being homeless myself for a year and a half, because I learned a few things you cannot learn without being homeless - or at least very close to homelessness and the lives of the people who live it.

A person must feel awfully low inside to have to resort to panhandling as a way of getting money for food and a place to sleep, let along clean clothes and phone change. (Bus money to look for work is about as far as GA money goes).
A person gets tired of sleeping on the streets. I know. Men are lucky to get a shelter bed once or twice a month. Women fare a little better with a couple of nights a week, but even that gets tiring. After a while you need to sleep in a real bed, have some privacy, and take a bath alone. But you do not have money for a hotel room. Where do you get the money? Your last resort, panhandling. When you begin to see what a person must go through day after day, month after month, you gain a little understanding.
But you ask what you could do.
The reason why I was not yelled at was that I acknowledged panhandlers. I let them know I knew they existed. It was not much, just a look saying that I cannot help. I would look at them, pat my pocket, and show an empty hand, or I pointed behind me with my thumb indicating I gave what I could to the last one who asked me. Sometimes I have just said "sorry." I have also said "not this time," "I wish I could help," or "I just gave to the last guy." All of which was true; I would never lie.
When I did these small things I said a lot more than my words did. I said to them, "I acknowledge you exist, I do not look down on you, you are no less a human being than I, and I respect you as a person." All that in a gesture or a few words.
A person who is down on their luck needs a little dignity left inside. If you look, you can even see the depression in their eyes. Panhandling is their last resort as it takes the loss of a lot of self respect to do it. And courage to look someone in the face and say, "I need your help."

[jolinar of malkshor]

Fair enough. But most people who commented in this thread, including myself, about thier unwillingness to get a job or get help have very valid arguements. The infastructure is in place to help most of these people. Excuses can only go so far and blame usually lands right on thier shoulders from decisions they have made in the past.

[yyc]

hmm third times the charm? cant seem to post on here.

i dont think a few people on here have dealt with addiction. or mental ilness for that matter.i have seen both destroy lives, both ending up with funerals. sure we all strugle with our everyday lives, but add in the X factor of addiction or mental problems and most of us would fail also.

and to the the high and mighty people who say "i had it hard", well face it we all had it hard. and i could tell you stories that would make you cry, thing is, i dont blame people for giving up. i wish them the best in what will ultimatley be a hard life. dont think your better then anyone, in the blink of an eye things can change. life has a funny way of making us realize how insignafite we really are.

anyways. i dont want to ruffle to many feathers with my first post


edit: wow, i cant spell, and my grammer is really poor. but ill leave it the way it is. {note to self: proof read next time}

[jolinar of malkshor]

A lot of times mental illness is the direct result of substance abuse and the consequences of such. Addiction is usually the direct result of someone CHOOSING to snort, puff, inject or consume a substance that they know darn rights will effect them in a negative way but they think addiction wont happen to them. Again lets not throw the blame were it doesnt belong (ie: society, upbringing, video games). We are the only creatures on this planet with a sense of choice and in this country the freedom to act on ones choice. You have to live with your decisions.

Its the same with all these people that smoke who say "ah, I am going to die anyhow so it doesn't matter". But when they are on life support at age 45 suffering from lung cancer and unable to watch thier children grow up, thier additude is quite different. Thats the choice they made, no excuses.

[Jaybo]

For me, a lot of this discussion comes down to one thing: the fact that there are two types of people in this world. There are people like "Jolinar of Malkshor" and "Calgary Flames" and "Rifleman" who appear to care about themselves first and others second. Then there are those like "JiriHrdina" and "RougeUnderoos" and "CaramonLS" who appear to care about others first and themselves second. Nobody is 100% for themselves or 100% for others but no one is able to be 50-50 either. I'm not saying either value system is correct although personally, I am in the second group as well.

I feel this way because I understand how quickly someone's life can be turned upside down and that not everyone is resourceful enough to recover. How many of the people attacking the homeless are living in homes that they couldn't afford if interest rates went up even 1-2% for instance? In Calgary, it's more than you can imagine. Or what would the people who are attacking social programs do if we didn't have universal healthcare and they got cancer or their parent needed a heart operation? Part of the deal with living in our particular society is that you can't pick and choose which social programs you support and that everyone in society, whether they "contribute" or not, is eligible for that support - whether it be welfare, public education to Grade 12 or a lung transplant. I don't have kids but pay property taxes that support the education system. I don't mind one bit.

This is a small detail in the longer thread but I think it's also irrelevant for Browna to bring Bible quotes into things - there are as many quotes to defend helping the homeless as there are against them (ie. "The meek shall inherit the earth", "Do unto others", etc. etc.)

A couple other observations...
- the majority of people who tend to be slamming the homeless have lots of spelling and grammar mistakes in their posts. So if I make my own value judgement about them and call them "idiots", I wonder how they feel about that?
- the majority of those attacking the homeless also tend to have very low post counts compared to those defending the homeless. Again, maybe signifying nothing but interesting to me nonetheless.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

A lot of times mental illness is the direct result of substance abuse and the consequences of such. Addiction is usually the direct result of someone CHOOSING to snort, puff, inject or consume a substance that they know darn rights will effect them in a negative way but they think addiction wont happen to them. Again lets not throw the blame were it doesnt belong (ie: society, upbringing, video games). We are the only creatures on this planet with a sense of choice and in this country the freedom to act on ones choice. You have to live with your decisions.

First of all, I appreciate the fact that you have continued to make your arguments in this thread while remaining calm.

As for the points above, I would dispute your claims about mental illness being a result of substance abuse. My understanding on the matter (and by no means am I an expert) is that substance abuse can exaggerate pre existing mental illness. In other words - it can make it worse, but I'm not sure if it can cause it.

As for the rest of your post- its a fair position....that we all ultimately choose our path and have to be responsible for that. By in my opinion one's situation and surrounding can go a long way to determining whether or not they turn to substance abuse. Things like being abused, or being a son/daughter of an addict have been shown to have a direct relationship with someone's likelihood to develop their on addiction. Can someone break this circle? Of course. But its tough.

Often people make one bad turn, one bad decision and it sends them down a road with disastorous results. I can look back at my own life and identify certain moments where if I had gone a different way, I could be in a very different place right now. The line between success and failure in life is a very thin one in my opinion.

[JiriHrdina]

BTW, I urge anyone that wants to read a different perpsective on a lot of issues we are discussing here to read this book:

http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/...ity+Shantytown

I'm not saying it has all the answers, but it will definately change your outlook on things.

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by Jaybo

For me, a lot of this discussion comes down to one thing: the fact that there are two types of people in this world. There are people like "Jolinar of Malkshor" and "Calgary Flames" and "Rifleman" who appear to care about themselves first and others second. Then there are those like "JiriHrdina" and "RougeUnderoos" and "CaramonLS" who appear to care about others first and themselves second. Nobody is 100% for themselves or 100% for others but noose defending the homeless. Again, maybe signifying nothing but interesting to me nonetheless.

I seriously doubt there is as huge a delineation between the two groups as you are stating here. All people take care of their own needs first, from the basic "survival" level, up. If they don't do this, they are not a functional human being. This does not make them selfish or bad people, because they "care about themselves first".

I appreciate that you're saying one school of thought is not above the other in this matter. Whether you agree with someone's rhetoric here (I can't say I follow Jordon's clearly passionate thoughts on the matter), people have arrived at their opinion in their own way.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Jaybo

For me, a lot of this discussion comes down to one thing: the fact that there are two types of people in this world. There are people like "Jolinar of Malkshor" and "Calgary Flames" and "Rifleman" who appear to care about themselves first and others second. Then there are those like "JiriHrdina" and "RougeUnderoos" and "CaramonLS" who appear to care about others first and themselves second. Nobody is 100% for themselves or 100% for others but no one is able to be 50-50 either. I'm not saying either value system is correct although personally, I am in the second group as well.

I feel this way because I understand how quickly someone's life can be turned upside down and that not everyone is resourceful enough to recover. How many of the people attacking the homeless are living in homes that they couldn't afford if interest rates went up even 1-2% for instance? In Calgary, it's more than you can imagine. Or what would the people who are attacking social programs do if we didn't have universal healthcare and they got cancer or their parent needed a heart operation? Part of the deal with living in our particular society is that you can't pick and choose which social programs you support and that everyone in society, whether they "contribute" or not, is eligible for that support - whether it be welfare, public education to Grade 12 or a lung transplant. I don't have kids but pay property taxes that support the education system. I don't mind one bit.

This is a small detail in the longer thread but I think it's also irrelevant for Browna to bring Bible quotes into things - there are as many quotes to defend helping the homeless as there are against them (ie. "The meek shall inherit the earth", "Do unto others", etc. etc.)

A couple other observations...
- the majority of people who tend to be slamming the homeless have lots of spelling and grammar mistakes in their posts. So if I make my own value judgement about them and call them "idiots", I wonder how they feel about that?
- the majority of those attacking the homeless also tend to have very low post counts compared to those defending the homeless. Again, maybe signifying nothing but interesting to me nonetheless.

Lets not worry about spelling. This is designed to stimulate discussion. Its not a published article. Come on... As for saying we care more for ourselves than others. You have no idea what we do for other people. I cant comment on others but I donate hundreds of dollars a year to charities along with spending many many hours volunteering for local organizations. Just because we want to hold people accountable for their actions does not mean we care more for ourselves. Give your head a shake.

You talk about "what if we didnt have healthcare and social programs" thats not the arguement. Show me were one person said we should not have these programs, or all man for themself. We actually argued that these programs are in place for a reason and should be used. Maybe you need to put your reading glasses on or something.

[browna]

Originally Posted by Jaybo

This is a small detail in the longer thread but I think it's also irrelevant for Browna to bring Bible quotes into things - there are as many quotes to defend helping the homeless as there are against them (ie. "The meek shall inherit the earth", "Do unto others", etc. etc.)

A couple other observations...
- the majority of people who tend to be slamming the homeless have lots of spelling and grammar mistakes in their posts. So if I make my own value judgement about them and call them "idiots", I wonder how they feel about that?
- the majority of those attacking the homeless also tend to have very low post counts compared to those defending the homeless. Again, maybe signifying nothing but interesting to me nonetheless.

That quote is irrelevant because it supposedly slams homeless? It touches on individual pride, diginity, self respect, and work ethic to regain control over one's life. Most truly dealt a bad hand by society and who are truly committed to getting back up on their feet, are proud people who still have self respect and dignity to do whatever it takes to be in a better situation... and also realize they have to take the long hard way to get there rather than to expect to laze around, feel sorry for themselves, and hope to fall into a big pot of money to solve everything.

If you want to nitpick and thus dismiss others opinions and posts for relevancy, spelling, and how many times they visit the board, you've got your head further in the sand than anyone else on this thread that you're looking down on.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Nicely put.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Lets not worry about spelling. This is designed to stimulate discussion. Its not a published article. Come on... As for saying we care more for ourselves than others. You have no idea what we do for other people. I cant comment on others but I donate hundreds of dollars a year to charities along with spending many many hours volunteering for local organizations. Just because we want to hold people accountable for their actions does not mean we care more for ourselves. Give your head a shake.

You talk about "what if we didnt have healthcare and social programs" thats not the arguement. Show me were one person said we should not have these programs, or all man for themself. We actually argued that these programs are in place for a reason and should be used. Maybe you need to put your reading glasses on or something.

I honestly have a tough time beleiving you are a day over 18. The attitude you've displayed in your posts to this point makes me doubt your legitimacy. Sounds like posturing to be quite honest.

[jolinar of malkshor]

What are you talking about? And what does age have to do with anything? You think I am lieing about my contributions to my community. I surely hope not. How does my attitude have anything to do the legitimacy of my arguements? Ones opinion is now posturing?

[Rhettzky]

http://calgarydowntown.com/panhandling/

[Hakan]

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...d=970599119419

[J pold]

Originally Posted by Hakan

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...d=970599119419

Extremely intelligent article, I think it deserves its own thread

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

What are you talking about? And what does age have to do with anything? You think I am lieing about my contributions to my community. I surely hope not. How does my attitude have anything to do the legitimacy of my arguements? Ones opinion is now posturing?

Well, I certainly hope you're not lying. But the fact is, people DO lie on internet message boards. They also use the shield of anonymity to hurl epithets at one another instead of debating one another on the merits of their arguments. I have no idea who you are--but I have now counted numerous times where you've done just this. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and a discussion forum is a great place for people to express themselves. But the discussion becomes pointless quickly if you can't remain civil.

You commented that you thought substance abuse caused mental illness. I can only assume that you have no experience with mental illness, and that's not your fault. In fact, the opposite is true: mental illness often leads to substance abuse. If you do a little research, you'll discover that this is supported by the literature--but it's also intuitively true, if you try to empathize for a moment with a person who's mentally ill.

Many people in society believe mental illness to be equivalent to moral weakness. The fact is, mental illness is a huge social problem. One of the main problems with mental illness is something that hasn't been mentioned on this board: people with less money receive a much lower quality of care for their illness.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Just so you know I do have some understanding of mental illness. I have a degree in Crminal Justice majoring in admistrative law and minoring in forensic psych. Now, I have no experience with clinical treatment or diagnosis but I do deal with these people sometimes on a daily basis.

Now as for what causes mental illness, most of the liturature touches on the fact that we really dont know. We know why a lot of it happens but not what causes it. And without providing any evidence (more of a personal opinion) I think that injecting mind altering chemicals into ones brain for a considerable amount of time just might be a factor in the development of some mental illness. Maybe I am wrong but I really dont think so. If you really want me to spend hours trying to find facts or studies to back me up I could but my time is more important to me than that,

At no time did I say chemical dependency was the sole cause of mental illness.

As for some personal jabs here and there ya I admit it, but I am by far one of the least offenders of such writing so throw me a bone would ya.

As for the guy who claims I am 18, why no response? Maybe your 18!

[Rhettzky]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Just so you know I do have some understanding of mental illness. I have a degree in Crminal Justice majoring in admistrative law and minoring in forensic psych. Now, I have no experience with clinical treatment or diagnosis but I do deal with these people sometimes on a daily basis.

Now as for what causes mental illness, most of the liturature touches on the fact that we really dont know. We know why a lot of it happens but not what causes it. And without providing any evidence (more of a personal opinion) I think that injecting mind altering chemicals into ones brain for a considerable amount of time just might be a factor in the development of some mental illness. Maybe I am wrong but I really dont think so. If you really want me to spend hours trying to find facts or studies to back me up I could but my time is more important to me than that,

At no time did I say chemical dependency was the sole cause of mental illness.

As for some personal jabs here and there ya I admit it, but I am by far one of the least offenders of such writing so throw me a bone would ya.

As for the guy who claims I am 18, why no response? Maybe your 18!

If you deal with mental illness on almost a daily basis I find it hard to believe that it would take you hours to find this information to back you up.