Anyone else see that Pro-Life Display on Campus?

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Superfraggle

The pro-life camp also likes to gloss over the major changes and often regret that comes from having a child you don't want and can't properly support.

That isn't ironic if you don't consider a fetus to be human yet, which I don't think the majority of pro-choicers do.

Two people you know is a very very small sample size. Of course things like that happen, but they happen on both sides of the equation. I'm sure there are people who have done it that are equally convinced that it was the right choice.

The pro-life camp actually encourages adoption if you don't actually want the child, or don't believe you can support it.

And as I said, you're right. The majority of pro-choicers don't think it's human. What I said was often after it's done, they do. But then, a lot of pro-choicers are men, so never have to go through that.

I'm sure there are too. I mean obviously women who get more than one have no such issues.

I'm surprised you all think I'm such a staunch pro-lifer. I've said there are exceptions to the rule. This debate started because of the display pro-life groups had on campus. Because of that, I've been talking about women who use abortion as birth control, which, on a University campus, is who the pro-life groups are targeting. I'm not talking about rape victims, or people who have their life threatened. I'm talking about your average 17-20 year old girl. You average 17-20 year old girl will likely believe that they cannot support the child, and look at abortion as an option. They don't want to bring the child to term because they don't think they would be able to give it up for adoption. So they abort because that's their right, it's their choice. It's not really a human anyways, it's just a 'clump of cells'. Then they realize that that clump of cells would have grown into a child, and the reason they didn't want to allow that to happen is because they couldn't afford to take care of it, didn't want to wreck their figure, whatever. But more than that, they didn't want to give it up because it was their child. Then they realize that that clump of cells was a human, and was their child.

Now, obviously a person who was raped is probably not going to think of it as their child. (A religious person probably would think of it as a gift from God though and carry it to term anyways.) A person who is facing their own mortality over this child will also face the situation differently. They may actually believe it is their child, but chose the known vs the unknown. I can't fault that either. I would hate to be in that situation. There are exceptions to every rule. I don't talk in absolutes.

Actually, one of the girls I know was 14 at the time she had her abortion. While she regretted it, she still believes it was the right choice for her at the time, but would never do it again. She believes she killed a person. So it's actually possible to regret it and think it was the right choice as well.

Not that I haven't said this before, I'm pro-choice, but believe the right choice is life in most cases.

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by FireFly

And as I said, you're right. The majority of pro-choicers don't think it's human. What I said was often after it's done, they do. But then, a lot of pro-choicers are men, so never have to go through that.

I was good with your last post except for this point. It's true that men don't generally get a choice in the matter, but you make it sound like the process doesn't involve them at all. You would have to be one callous ******* not to care what happens to your child, wanted or not. I would think that having the decision of what happens to your child up to someone else would make things worse.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by FireFly

And as I said, you're right. The majority of pro-choicers don't think it's human. What I said was often after it's done, they do. But then, a lot of pro-choicers are men, so never have to go through that.

Some how I doubt Roe vs. Wade was passed just to keep men happy.

Not to mention, do you have any evidence to support this?

The majority of the most visable pro-life supporters are Male.
More men have blown up abortion clinics than woman have.
In this particular rally at the UofC, there were more men than women passing out pro-life information.

[Hakan]

Which is where the pro-choice arguments come from. Women, not men, should have control over their own bodies.

Maybe in a perfect world, when child bearing and raising was actually valued enough that women would not have the fear of economic hardship, partner flight, and state abandonment could we perceivably begin to talk about outlawing abortion. Until then though, it's another example of a masculine or as they say a 'patriarchal' system intending to dominate and subject the rights and power that women should have. Of course, though, I'm unwilling to get into a patriarchy discussion, but it's food for thought.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Some how I doubt Roe vs. Wade was passed just to keep men happy.

Not to mention, do you have any evidence to support this?

The majority of the most visable pro-life supporters are Male.
More men have blown up abortion clinics than woman have.
In this particular rally at the UofC, there were more men than women passing out pro-life information.

My apologies to both of you. I meant to say that a lot of the pro-choicers on here are men. I think I'm the only female in this discussion currently, and oddly enough, I'm in a minority of pro-lifers here.

[ken0042]

FireFly, is it possible to be pro-life, but still think abortion is a consideration in the case of rape?

I'm just thinking that many of the arguements that go along with pro-life have little to do with how the baby was conceived.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by ken0042

FireFly, is it possible to be pro-life, but still think abortion is a consideration in the case of rape?

I'm just thinking that many of the arguements that go along with pro-life have little to do with how the baby was conceived.

That's why I said I'm really more pro-choice, but feel the choice should be life in most cases. Or perhaps it's better to say I'm anti-abortion?

[ken0042]

That does actually make sense.

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by FireFly

My apologies to both of you. I meant to say that a lot of the pro-choicers on here are men. I think I'm the only female in this discussion currently, and oddly enough, I'm in a minority of pro-lifers here.

But are you saying that, being men, our opinions are somehow less valid? Because that is honestly how it sounds. Otherwise, I'm not sure what the point of bringing sex into it was.

[SeeGeeWhy]

Why don't more pro-lifers adopt? They are willing to fight for the rights of a person who does not have their own voice yet, but will not help them once they get shot out into the world. Oh right, because it is fundamentals.

Is it truly selfish to say that death is a sweeter fate than growing up in squalor with parent(s) who resent your very existence?

What if the almost aborted child grows up to be a sex offender, serial killer, or worse, the President of the USA?

More importantly, why aren't people who have non-rape related abortions become automatically sterilized? You don't want that kid? Ok, you'll never have one. Teaches you for having irresponsible, indulgent sex. Mom, you can thank me for the money you're about to save of tampons. Dad, you won't have to worry about getting into a swimming pool too fast anymore.

Why don't we eat our young like other animals sometimes do? You could solve world hunger AND still get laid on the regular if we made this a global initiative.

Only the strong survive, right?

[Hakan]

What's your point?

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by SeeGeeWhy

Why don't more pro-lifers adopt? They are willing to fight for the rights of a person who does not have their own voice yet, but will not help them once they get shot out into the world. Oh right, because it is fundamentals.

Is it truly selfish to say that death is a sweeter fate than growing up in squalor with parent(s) who resent your very existence?

What if the almost aborted child grows up to be a sex offender, serial killer, or worse, the President of the USA?

More importantly, why aren't people who have non-rape related abortions become automatically sterilized? You don't want that kid? Ok, you'll never have one. Teaches you for having irresponsible, indulgent sex. Mom, you can thank me for the money you're about to save of tampons. Dad, you won't have to worry about getting into a swimming pool too fast anymore.

Why don't we eat our young like other animals sometimes do? You could solve world hunger AND still get laid on the regular if we made this a global initiative.

Only the strong survive, right?

Well the world IS overpopulated. Why don't we just go around wiping out civilizations that are unable to defend themselves to make room for other countries' excess? Release some sort of deadly virus into the overpopulated areas of the world. It won't wipe EVERYONE out...just most.


No, I'm not serious....well....not really......

[Indi]

isnt it funny that the radical pro-lifers like to kill to get thier point across..

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Indi

isnt it funny that the radical pro-lifers like to kill to get thier point across..

huh?! please explain yourself as i'm probably not the only one that missed the point you were trying to make

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

huh?! please explain yourself as i'm probably not the only one that missed the point you were trying to make

He is refering to abortion clinic bombers, who are a very radical faction of the pro-life movement.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by SeeGeeWhy

Why don't more pro-lifers adopt? They are willing to fight for the rights of a person who does not have their own voice yet, but will not help them once they get shot out into the world. Oh right, because it is fundamentals.

Is it truly selfish to say that death is a sweeter fate than growing up in squalor with parent(s) who resent your very existence?

What if the almost aborted child grows up to be a sex offender, serial killer, or worse, the President of the USA?

More importantly, why aren't people who have non-rape related abortions become automatically sterilized? You don't want that kid? Ok, you'll never have one. Teaches you for having irresponsible, indulgent sex. Mom, you can thank me for the money you're about to save of tampons. Dad, you won't have to worry about getting into a swimming pool too fast anymore.

Why don't we eat our young like other animals sometimes do? You could solve world hunger AND still get laid on the regular if we made this a global initiative.

Only the strong survive, right?

?! what are you trying to say? that a kid that's put up for adoption is going to live a life that's worse than death? that they will grow up to be a horrible, violent career criminal?

i've seen more people come out of homes that were too 'normal' and 'loving' that were screwed up as opposed to homes that weren't 'ideal' situations for raising kids

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

He is refering to abortion clinic bombers, who are a very radical faction of the pro-life movement.

ahhh i see now. makes sense.
i in no way condone what some of those nuts have done but for the most part haven't the bombings happened at night when the clinics were empty? of course this doesn't apply to the shooters...
and yes, get a group of any reasonable size and you will get some nuts in them.

look at the terrorist attacks that have been goign on, performed in the name of islam, a peace loving religion.... ironic, yes... but you can't judge the entire group and the entire cause based on the actions of a couple wackos.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Superfraggle

But are you saying that, being men, our opinions are somehow less valid? Because that is honestly how it sounds. Otherwise, I'm not sure what the point of bringing sex into it was.

I didn't say your opinion was less valid. I said that you simply don't know what a woman goes through when deciding to/after an abortion. The male perspective is unique and different than the female.

The comment was in regards to feeling differently about it being 'a clump of cells' after going through an abortion. A man would never know the way a woman's body is forced to readjust to not being pregnant again, the emptiness that many women claim to feel after an abortion. If a man has come to terms with the abortion beforehand considering it not human, he likely won't change his mind after. He doesn't feel that emptiness. But for women, many of them realize once it's done that it wasn't just a part of them. That's all.

IMO, a man's opinion needs to be taken into more consideration in many areas. For example, if the man really wants it, and is willing to raise it himself. Or if the man doesn't want it and would prefer an abortion as in the present 'Roe vs. Wade for men' case. However, a man will never experience himself the physiological/mental changes a woman goes through before, during, and after an abortion. So it's difficult for them to have an accurate assessment of that aspect.

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I didn't say your opinion was less valid. I said that you simply don't know what a woman goes through when deciding to/after an abortion. The male perspective is unique and different than the female.

The comment was in regards to feeling differently about it being 'a clump of cells' after going through an abortion. A man would never know the way a woman's body is forced to readjust to not being pregnant again, the emptiness that many women claim to feel after an abortion. If a man has come to terms with the abortion beforehand considering it not human, he likely won't change his mind after. He doesn't feel that emptiness. But for women, many of them realize once it's done that it wasn't just a part of them. That's all.

IMO, a man's opinion needs to be taken into more consideration in many areas. For example, if the man really wants it, and is willing to raise it himself. Or if the man doesn't want it and would prefer an abortion as in the present 'Roe vs. Wade for men' case. However, a man will never experience himself the physiological/mental changes a woman goes through before, during, and after an abortion. So it's difficult for them to have an accurate assessment of that aspect.

You say that you didn't say men's viewpoint was less valid, and then go on to explain how it's less valid because they can't have the accurate assessment that women can. I believe you when you say that you don't think it needs to be dismissed, though. You're right...things happen to the female body that men cannot understand, not having gone through it themselves.

Again, the bolded part I have a problem with. That is an entirely uninformed opinion. I would argue that men can very easily change his mind and regret things later. And feel the emptiness.



As a bit of an aside, this discussion brings Se7en to mind...when Morgan Freeman's character talks about the time he pushed his significant other into aborting a child. Roughly paraphrased, he says that he knows it was the right decision, but not a day goes by that he doesn't regret it.

[SeeGeeWhy]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

?! what are you trying to say? that a kid that's put up for adoption is going to live a life that's worse than death? that they will grow up to be a horrible, violent career criminal?

i've seen more people come out of homes that were too 'normal' and 'loving' that were screwed up as opposed to homes that weren't 'ideal' situations for raising kids

No, I am just saying that abortion debates are boring. Just trying to stir the pot.