[News] With the 80th OA pick, the Flames select LD Mace'o Phillips

[1991 Canadian]

Phillips was my biggest surprise from the rookie games. I'm always leery of these big low point defenseman, but there is some solid potential here.

I was expecting him to assert himself physically (and he did), but he had better hands / poise than I expected of a guy his size. Some good breakout passes. Some good poise at the blueline in the zone.

I can see why the Flames scouts had him the 3rd round.

[Strange Brew]

Steinberg talked about him for a bit. He was the only 2025 draft pick playing for the Flames. We probably won't see him again for a couple of years, he is committed to NCAA in 2026.

[topfiverecords]

Walking to the train after the game my son says to me "I found my new favourite player" .. "Phillips!".

Phillips made a good impression.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by 1991 Canadian

Phillips was my biggest surprise from the rookie games. I'm always leery of these big low point defenseman, but there is some solid potential here.

I was expecting him to assert himself physically (and he did), but he had better hands / poise than I expected of a guy his size. Some good breakout passes. Some good poise at the blueline in the zone.

I can see why the Flames scouts had him the 3rd round.

Teams find 2-3 players every draft at best, and the rest don't turn out.

But the backlash on his selection was off for me.

The Flames as a drafting group wouldn't have selected a player that they felt had zero ceiling and was destined to be the equivalent of a replacement level 7-8 defenseman.

Yet that was the assumption ... "why draft those guys?"

They didn't. They saw shutdown defenseman with upside and took him in the third round.

May not make it but they never had the "hey lets find a big guy that can't produce offensively" plan from the start.

[1991 Canadian]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Teams find 2-3 players every draft at best, and the rest don't turn out.

But the backlash on his selection was off for me.

The Flames as a drafting group wouldn't have selected a player that they felt had zero ceiling and was destined to be the equivalent of a replacement level 7-8 defenseman.

Yet that was the assumption ... "why draft those guys?"

They didn't. They saw shutdown defenseman with upside and took him in the third round.

May not make it but they never had the "hey lets find a big guy that can't produce offensively" plan from the start.

There is definitely past results bias when it comes to these sort of players for me. The "bigger, defensse focused, that don't put up points" players haven't worked out en masse for the Flames. Kulak is the only notable "defensive" D that has eked out a career in recent years.

Fox. Andersson. Valimaki. Kylington. Brodie. The Flames drafted D that have worked out (to an extent) are the more average sized, point producing, more offense focused types.

Stepan Falkovsky. Keegan Kanzig. Riley Bruce. Tyler Wotherspoon. Patrick Sieloff. I'm missing a handful, but there is a long list of D first types in the prospect graveyard.

Would be great to see Phillips buck this trend.

[EVERLAST]

Originally Posted by 1991 Canadian

There is definitely past results bias when it comes to these sort of players for me. The "bigger, defensse focused, that don't put up points" players haven't worked out en masse for the Flames. Kulak is the only notable "defensive" D that has eked out a career in recent years.

Fox. Andersson. Valimaki. Kylington. Brodie. The Flames drafted D that have worked out (to an extent) are the more average sized, point producing, more offense focused types.

Stepan Falkovsky. Keegan Kanzig. Riley Bruce. Tyler Wotherspoon. Patrick Sieloff. I'm missing a handful, but there is a long list of D first types in the prospect graveyard.

Would be great to see Phillips buck this trend.

Just ask him to watch Byfuglien highlite reels . Tell him dial that IN and Channel your inner Dustin

Just don't show up to camp weighing 280 and answer your phone in the off-season

[sureLoss]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1967769502965436580

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

https://twitter.com/user/status/1967769502965436580

Not a bad trio of Flames skaters - height-wise - in that video. 6'5", 6'5", and 6'6'.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Teams find 2-3 players every draft at best, and the rest don't turn out.

But the backlash on his selection was off for me.

The Flames as a drafting group wouldn't have selected a player that they felt had zero ceiling and was destined to be the equivalent of a replacement level 7-8 defenseman.

In all fairness, I doubt the Flames as a drafting group felt this way about guys like Keegan Kanzig and Jake Boltmann at the time either. Obviously they liked Phillips, otherwise they wouldn't have taken him — I don't think that was ever in doubt. I think what some folks had concerns about was whether the Flames were right to like him as much as they clearly do.

In the case of a guy like Boltmann (or Cam Whynot, or a couple others), it was never all that clear whatsoever why the Flames felt he was worth any pick at all, let alone a third rounder. I think it's fair for people to have the memory of that pick in the back of their mind when the same team picks a guy with a somewhat similar profile in the same round. Certainly not to take anything away from Phillips, though, he looked great in the two games.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

In all fairness, I doubt the Flames as a drafting group felt this way about guys like Keegan Kanzig and Jake Boltmann at the time either. Obviously they liked Phillips, otherwise they wouldn't have taken him — I don't think that was ever in doubt. I think what some folks had concerns about was whether the Flames were right to like him as much as they clearly do.

In the case of a guy like Boltmann (or Cam Whynot, or a couple others), it was never all that clear whatsoever why the Flames felt he was worth any pick at all, let alone a third rounder. I think it's fair for people to have the memory of that pick in the back of their mind when the same team picks a guy with a somewhat similar profile in the same round. Certainly not to take anything away from Phillips, though, he looked great in the two games.

I think we've seen a change in how they draft in recent years. Maybe not a huge change from Boltmann's draft year, but certainly a change from Kanzig.

They have altered their go to parameters, have drafted more skill, have drafted smaller players. Character seems to be huge.

So sure you want a monster defenseman, but I doubt that's all they had on the list when they selected him.

[BigThief]

The covid drafts are a little weird; 2020 the seasons ended everywhere just as teams start focusing on their players and lists. Boltmann only played 17 games that year, it's possible a scout saw him for a weekend series and really pushed for him. They had just taken Poirier, the exact opposite type of player so maybe they saw a chance to reach there. Similar for Whynot, 34 games during 2021 and I doubt anyone saw him in person that season. If you go through that entire draft is alot of crazy picks looking back

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by 1991 Canadian

There is definitely past results bias when it comes to these sort of players for me. The "bigger, defensse focused, that don't put up points" players haven't worked out en masse for the Flames. Kulak is the only notable "defensive" D that has eked out a career in recent years.

Fox. Andersson. Valimaki. Kylington. Brodie. The Flames drafted D that have worked out (to an extent) are the more average sized, point producing, more offense focused types.

Stepan Falkovsky. Keegan Kanzig. Riley Bruce. Tyler Wotherspoon. Patrick Sieloff. I'm missing a handful, but there is a long list of D first types in the prospect graveyard.

Would be great to see Phillips buck this trend.

Flames have drafted a bunch of mid sized defencemen that haven't worked out either. Negrin, Erixon, Ramage, Gilmour, Culkin, Hickey. BTW, it doesn't look like Kylington or Valimaki will have a big career either. And they've a couple bigger guys who carved out careers that were missed: Pardy, Phaneuf.

What it looks like more is that the Flames haven't drafted well on D period.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by EVERLAST

Just ask him to watch Byfuglien highlite reels . Tell him dial that IN and Channel your inner Dustin

Just don't show up to camp weighing 280 and answer your phone in the off-season

Byfuglien was productive offensively. Should model his game after Regehr or Sarich instead.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think we've seen a change in how they draft in recent years. Maybe not a huge change from Boltmann's draft year, but certainly a change from Kanzig.

They have altered their go to parameters, have drafted more skill, have drafted smaller players. Character seems to be huge.

So sure you want a monster defenseman, but I doubt that's all they had on the list when they selected him.

I am not sure that they would pass on Kanzig again. They really liked him a lot in his draft year. IIRC, they had some scout/management meetings in Vancouver that year, and they all took the ferry over to Victoria specifically to watch Kanzig play, and they all pretty much liked him. I remember reading that. There was a lot to like about Kanzig as a prospect - high-end character, work-ethic, size/reach, skating for a big man, and how he went from essentially a goon playing low minutes to playing on the top pairing in his draft year against the best lines and excelling. IIRC, every single scout really liked Kanzig.


Maybe it wasn't the pick that failed here, but the development? Maybe he would have succeeded under Calgary's expanded development team, especially Daneille Fujita? I read a number of articles about Kanzig - I am actually fairly convinced that the Flames would pick him again today all things being equal. Kanzig was a high-IQ defencemen, high-compete, high-character, and a super athlete. People like to point at him for being a terrible pick, but there was a lot there other than his ability to fight.

[BigThief]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Flames have drafted a bunch of mid sized defencemen that haven't worked out either. Negrin, Erixon, Ramage, Gilmour, Culkin, Hickey. BTW, it doesn't look like Kylington or Valimaki will have a big career either. And they've a couple bigger guys who carved out careers that were missed: Pardy, Phaneuf.

What it looks like more is that the Flames haven't drafted well on D period.

Damn, you went into the archives for that. Most of those guys are 3rd round or later so I don't know the success rate of blue liners in the later rounds. John Gilmour was a 7th rounder. They've hit on TJ Brodie, Brett Kulak and Adam Fox in those late rounds as well in a similar time period. No Oliver Kylington went off the rails but Rasmus Andersson has done well for himself

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by BigThief

Damn, you went into the archives for that. Most of those guys are 3rd round or later so I don't know the success rate of blue liners in the later rounds. John Gilmour was a 7th rounder. They've hit on TJ Brodie, Brett Kulak and Adam Fox in those late rounds as well in a similar time period. No Oliver Kylington went off the rails but Rasmus Andersson has done well for himself

Defensive defencemen tend to be later rounds (if they are drafted at all, see Tanev, Chris). Or they are guys who were producers in junior who became defensive NHLers.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by 1991 Canadian

Stepan Falkovsky. Keegan Kanzig. Riley Bruce. Tyler Wotherspoon. Patrick Sieloff. I'm missing a handful, but there is a long list of D first types in the prospect graveyard. .

I'll take it.

2017-Jun-29 Keegan Kanzig Traded from Calgary Flames with round 6 pick in the 2019 draft (Kevin Wall) to Carolina Hurricanes for Eddie Lack, Ryan Murphy and round 7 pick in the 2019 draft (Dustin Wolf)

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/...php?pid=145158

[Jiri Hrdina]

I remember being excited they acquired Ryan Murphy, who had a lot of offense potential (that never went anywhere).
I think they bought him out immediately after.

[YyjFlames]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

In all fairness, I doubt the Flames as a drafting group felt this way about guys like Keegan Kanzig and Jake Boltmann at the time either. Obviously they liked Phillips, otherwise they wouldn't have taken him — I don't think that was ever in doubt. I think what some folks had concerns about was whether the Flames were right to like him as much as they clearly do.

In the case of a guy like Boltmann (or Cam Whynot, or a couple others), it was never all that clear whatsoever why the Flames felt he was worth any pick at all, let alone a third rounder. I think it's fair for people to have the memory of that pick in the back of their mind when the same team picks a guy with a somewhat similar profile in the same round. Certainly not to take anything away from Phillips, though, he looked great in the two games.

You're looking at the pick like a fan/pundit, rather than more strategically as I'm sure a team like Calgary does.

Scouting teams plan for the entire draft based on what they prioritize, the various types of players in a draft and where players they like are likely to go and where they'll probably need to take them even if they may not be BPA. Most fans/draft pundits think less wholistically and criticize each pick if we think or hear there might have been a better player available at the time (Cameron Schmidt) or if we don't like a perceived skillset that a player brings for where they're drafted.

They took Phillips in the third because they saw there were a number of big defenders in this draft, and they wanted one of them as part of their draft plan. They probably would have preferred to take Phillips later, and maybe a guy like Wyttenbach earlier, but as Button said after the draft, goalies and big bodied-defenders tend to go in groups, so if they were going to get one of them, they felt they needed to draft him in the third as a number of others had already been taken (7 in the first and 5 more before Calgary picked in the 2nd).

Even draft darling Carolina passed on Cameron Schmidt and took two big-bodied defenders in the third round instead, as this draft clearly prioritized big defenders.

I've become less concerned over the last few years about individual strategic picks like Phillips because the scouting team has shown that they can find value throughout the draft, and if a guy like Phillips turns out, look out, as he'll be a big part of the team.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

I'll take it.

2017-Jun-29 Keegan Kanzig Traded from Calgary Flames with round 6 pick in the 2019 draft (Kevin Wall) to Carolina Hurricanes for Eddie Lack, Ryan Murphy and round 7 pick in the 2019 draft (Dustin Wolf)

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/...php?pid=145158

I was just going to post this. As much as people didn't like Kanzig as a 3rd, Carolina did ask for him in a trade that eventually got us Wolf.