[PGT] Winnipeg 5 Calgary 2

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Nope. Going into the season clearly Vladar was the #1 goalie. Wolf was still a wildcard.

If that was clear, they wouldn’t have platooned starts from the beginning.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Nope. Going into the season clearly Vladar was the #1 goalie. Wolf was still a wildcard.

Wolf is obviously the #1 now though and is being used as such. Vladar has a 6 game losing streak.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Bingo

The two extremes in this argument just kill me.

Ignoring the fact that Vladar has had the more difficult starts and plays all the back to backs is silly.

Trying to justify giving up five on two expected, also silly.

For me it is quite simple and it all comes down to stopping the puck. When if ever has Vladar peeled off 3-4 straight games (not consecutive starts) as a Flame where you're looking at him the same way we are all looking at Wolf now? He's almost constantly sporting a sub .900sv% and nowhere near the middle of the pack in any advanced figures.

Yes, there are extremes in the argument, but I've seen better Flames goalies torched here for being far better than Vladar has been this year and last year. You can still have some bloated numbers and look good in the NHL and it's few and far between with him where you walk away feeling he got a raw deal in a game.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Wolf is obviously the #1 now though and is being used as such. Vladar has a 6 game losing streak.

Well yeah. But you'd have to be insane to think that Wolf was the starter when the season started.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by flamesgod

If that was clear, they wouldn’t have platooned starts from the beginning.

You mean give the #1 goalie the hard teams and the rookie the easy teams?

[dino7c]

It was a split at the start...slightly favoured Vladar.

Wolf is #1 now though and its not close

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by dino7c

It was a split at the start...slightly favoured Vladar.

Wolf is #1 now though and its not close

Somebody did the analysis, sure seemed like Vladar got the tougher starts at first.

They did throw Wolf... to the wolves... and he struggled for a bit there but damn the kid came out of it even better. That's resilience.

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by Shazam

You mean give the #1 goalie the hard teams and the rookie the easy teams?

Yes, they sheltered Wolf slightly at first, as they should have. They have done a great job developing him. But they still very much shared starts. A number 1 doesn’t platoon.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by Burner

When Hanley is on your #1 defense pairing its hard to expect a win. Our defenceman depth was exposed. I think its time to call up some young ones and see what they can do . Stop gap journey men arent the way forward for a rebuilding team.

Agreed. We need to get a look at these d-men knocking on the door and see if they're better options than those on the fringe of the roster.

Especially guys like Kuznetsov who've been cooking for a while. I think this team is in sore need of 1-2 stay at home d-men who are reliable in their end.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Flames gave up more than double the chances in their win against the Jets vs. their loss. Anyone saying they gave up a ton last night wasnt watching or is being biased.

No one disputes Wolf stood on his head to win the game. Wolf v Vladar is simply not the issue. It's Vladar versus some other backup.

Everyone wants Cooley who is having a great AHL year, but rocked a .870% and 4.98 GAA with the Sharks in 6 games and has had 3/5 years sub .900 in the AHL overall (on where he never got to be a starter until this year, playing behind guys like Tokarski and Ingram). I understand the reluctance to bring him up, frankly.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

No one disputes Wolf stood on his head to win the game. Wolf v Vladar is simply not the issue. It's Vladar versus some other backup.

Everyone wants Cooley who is having a great AHL year, but rocked a .870% and 4.98 GAA with the Sharks in 6 games and has had 3/5 years sub .900 in the AHL overall (on where he never got to be a starter until this year, playing behind guys like Tokarski and Ingram). I understand the reluctance to bring him up, frankly.

Dont get me wrong, I like Vladar and feel that I know his uses, such as they are.

This team is not 'going for the gold' so Vladar can, competently, lighten the load on a rookie.

I dont like the concept of throwing rookies into the deep-end and telling them to figure out how to swim.

Huska's 50/50 policy? I think appears to be rather sound.

I dont want a guy that is going to want to steal Wolf's starts, I would like a guy that is a good teammate and would push him. If I had my wish I'd love Marc-Andre Fleury.

A veteran who knows his days are numbered but can still hold a game while teaching and pushing a kid and....knows what it takes to be #1.

But thats not realistic, so we have to make do with what we have.

[FBI]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

No one disputes Wolf stood on his head to win the game. Wolf v Vladar is simply not the issue. It's Vladar versus some other backup.

Everyone wants Cooley who is having a great AHL year, but rocked a .870% and 4.98 GAA with the Sharks in 6 games and has had 3/5 years sub .900 in the AHL overall (on where he never got to be a starter until this year, playing behind guys like Tokarski and Ingram). I understand the reluctance to bring him up, frankly.

I'm ok with using goalies that were buried in the sharks system that were playing average..

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FBI

I'm ok with using goalies that were buried in the sharks system that were playing average..

Well, TBF Sharks was his last team, and he was buried by Eric Comrie and Dustin Tokarski in the A and Blackwood and Kahkonen in the NHL. Before that it was Nashville and Buffalo's farm teams (including ECHL). Dude has bounced around.

You know who else had great AHL numbers similar to his? Dan Vladar.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by transplant99

How is it "misleading"?

Its a simple comparison of him against his peers who have played as many or more games.

Not sure why you would bring up Wolf....cuz he has nothing to do with it.

But since you asked....guys he is behind in save%

Lindgren, DeSmith, Allen, Kahkonen, Korpisalo, Jack Campbell, Rittich, Ingram and on and on.

It's misleading because it's a comparison with starters included, who are not "his peers". So yeah, he's not having a great year but you have to compare him only to backups because that's what he is.

Vladar is .886. Jack Campbell is .873.

And you seem to ignore team D. Allen plays for a team way stingier on D. Same for DeSmith (who is very good anyway). What about backups on leaky teams? Levi, Silovs, Jarry, Georgiev, Grubauer, Husso, etc??

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It's misleading because it's a comparison with starters included, who are not "his peers". So yeah, he's not having a great year but you have to compare him only to backups because that's what he is.

Vladar is .886. Jack Campbell is .873.

And you seem to ignore team D. Allen plays for a team way stingier on D. Same for DeSmith (who is very good anyway). What about backups on leaky teams? Levi, Silovs, Jarry, Georgiev, Grubauer, Husso, etc??

Sigh.

This covers since he came into the league, not just this season. And used only guys who have played as many or more games. Very straight forward stuff. Starters/backups....they all play the same position.

This season is just like all his seasons however....in fact he was worse last season when he was apparently playing hurt.

The numbers, the eye test, his history....all point to a below average NHL G.

Not sure what the argument is otherwise?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Sigh.

This covers since he came into the league, not just this season. And used only guys who have played as many or more games. Very straight forward stuff. Starters/backups....they all play the same position.

This season is just like all his seasons however....in fact he was worse last season when he was apparently playing hurt.

The numbers, the eye test, his history....all point to a below average NHL G.

Not sure what the argument is otherwise?

The argument is that IMO he’s an average backup with a ton of experience. He’s below average when you throw in all the starters in the league. But he’s not expected to be a starter any more, so that shouldn’t be the comparison.

And the other argument is that Cooley isn’t necessarily some magic backup who’s going to look any different - his stats don’t suggest that at all.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The argument is that IMO he’s an average backup with a ton of experience. He’s below average when you throw in all the starters in the league. But he’s not expected to be a starter any more, so that shouldn’t be the comparison.

And the other argument is that Cooley isn’t necessarily some magic backup who’s going to look any different - his stats don’t suggest that at all.

I guess if 96 games "is a ton".

He is still a very poor backup though because those numbers include starters and backups and guys so bad they are out of the league...yet DV is still at or near the bottom of them all.

No idea what the Cooley thing is about...i havent even mentioned him.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Well yeah. But you'd have to be insane to think that Wolf was the starter when the season started.

A number of players have earned their status this season.

Wolf, Bahl, Pachal, Coronato. Potentially Pelletier, but his has been a much smaller sample size

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by Shazam

You mean give the #1 goalie the hard teams and the rookie the easy teams?

Who are the easy teams? San Jose, Chicago, and Buffalo? Is anyone else really out of it yet?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I guess if 96 games "is a ton".

He is still a very poor backup though because those numbers include starters and backups and guys so bad they are out of the league...yet DV is still at or near the bottom of them all.

No idea what the Cooley thing is about...i havent even mentioned him.

There's plenty of posters in this thread who think Cooley is the answer. I wonder if they are the same people who thought Markstrom needed to be yanked in favour of Vladar against the Oilers.

Those numbers you are referring to seem to be incorrect for this year. The games played is important because lots of nackups come in and put up good numbers and then settle back. But teams looking to get a backup for the POs want a guy who at least has played against a lot of teams. And it's not just games he played in - he's been the regular backup for a team for a lot longer than most guys. That's also experience.