If a certain group of people don’t feel welcome or included at an event, specifically because the sport itself is not very inclusive or has not been, what do you think is an appropriate way to show them they are welcome without offending you?
As I've been saying all along I'm not offended by pride night. I don't care one way or another about having it. What I do mind is the mind set that anyone who doesn't support it is an idiot, a homophobe, a transphobe, or w.e. I didn't like the backlash that Provorov got for skipping warmup. I don't like the fact that people are saying he has a freedom only as long as he agrees with them.
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it would be a diverse group of people who enjoy watching hockey, just like gendered minorities are a diverse group of people who enjoy watching hockey?
Honest question, what kind of person do you think shows up for "Straight Night" or "White Night" at a sporting event to promote "actual diversity"?
tl;dr basically for 200,000 years humans averaged out ~11% left-handed, except during the Victorian era into the 1950s where it fell to as low as a reported 3%. As the paper states:
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it seems undoubted that there was a general stigmatization and discrimination against left-handers at the end of the nineteenth century
My mother is left-handed, and she told me that her teachers would hit her with a ruler if she wrote with her left hand and one actually tied her left hand to her chair and forced her to write right handed. That's in Canada, in the 60's.
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As I've been saying all along I'm not offended by pride night. I don't care one way or another about having it. What I do mind is the mind set that anyone who doesn't support it is an idiot, a homophobe, a transphobe, or w.e. I didn't like the backlash that Provorov got for skipping warmup. I don't like the fact that people are saying he has a freedom only as long as he agrees with them.
No one is saying that. Again freedom of speech and action doesn't mean freedom of consequences.
And no one is suggesting that Provorov or Reimer are going around doing violent hate crimes. But the fact of the matter is that violent hate crimes still happen today. They've happened to friends of mine, and a ex have been fortunately that it only nearly happened to us.
Pride nights, and warm up jerseys, really are the lowest bar imaginable to feel like when I go to a hockey game the person sitting beside is less likely to do harm to me outside the Saddledome depending on who I'm holding hands with (platonic or otherwise).
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Originally Posted by Locke
Thats why Flames fans make ideal Star Trek fans. We've really been taught to embrace the self-loathing and extreme criticism.
No one is saying that. Again freedom of speech and action doesn't mean freedom of consequences.
Ehhhh... this is overly simplistic.
But in this case, Reimer and Provorov are really not suffering any consequences to speak of. Now, Colin Kaepernick, on the other hand...
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As I've been saying all along I'm not offended by pride night. I don't care one way or another about having it. What I do mind is the mind set that anyone who doesn't support it is an idiot, a homophobe, a transphobe, or w.e. I didn't like the backlash that Provorov got for skipping warmup. I don't like the fact that people are saying he has a freedom only as long as he agrees with them.
Except all the reasons to not support Pride Night that have ever been provided are homophobic, idiotic and otherwise bigoted.
And folks are allowed to be those things if that is their lifestyle choice, but as has been well established, freedom of speech and belief does not mean freedom from consequences.
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First part, yes. Second part, probably not, but your rhetoric here isn't exactly helping anything.
As for the discrimination I disagree. It was a huge issue, and I don't think it is right now especially in a country like Canada. At least in terms of most aspects of life. I think our society is quite tolerant for the most part.
I grant you there will be the occasional #######, that will use a person's sexual orientation to be an #######. That same way people found a way to be dicks to me when I lived in Israel because they thought I was Russian(Ukrainian), or in Ukraine because they thought I was Jewish. There are always people that simply need an excuse, that's where you just need a thicker skin.
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Originally Posted by Yamer
Nobody is forcing anyone to use someone's preferred pronouns. The community is simply asking people to be decent, considerate, and thoughtful human beings through respecting their self identity by using the pronouns with which they identify. It's not infringing on free speech rights, but if you subscribe to the Jordan Peterson model of not doing it to be spiteful - which I am not accusing you of doing - then you're just being a dick because you can.
Nobody is forcing people for now. I'm all for being decent to one another, I just don't like the implicit "or else" at the end of that. Even in this thread, just as an example, Trent called me bro. He didn't ask me if he can, or if I'd be offended by it. Others called me an idiot. Which again I can't say I'm pleased with but I don't think I should make an issue of.
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Originally Posted by Yamer
And it's been explained that this a nonsense thing to be concerned about because not only is it not practical, it's also significantly unlikely. It seems that a lot of the anxieties people have regarding trans persons could be easily assuaged if they stopped manufacturing problems in their own heads.
I'm not sure it accounts for revenue from other sources as a result of the increased publicity. Again, it might not work in women soccer, but might be an issue in mma or tennis, for example.
That's the sort of issue I would also like to avoid with the prison system.
That's another silly thought because straight people don't require an equalization effort. It's the same goofiness that goes along with "all lives matter". While technically true, not all lives are in various modes of crises.
Like BIPOC persons, LGBTQ+ persons are trying to achieve the same status and inclusiveness as white, cisgendered, heterosexual persons.
I agree that straight people don't require an equalization effort. However, I'm also of the opinion that we're already equal, and a pride night isn't going to change anything. If a person commits a crime/discriminates against another because of their sexual orientation they will be judged to the full extent of the law.
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Originally Posted by Yamer
Which opinions and/or claims are you asking posters to qualify?
Opinions like that hormone treatment completely levels the playing field when it comes to pro sports. Or ones that try to imply that I have an opinion because of one phobia or another.
As for the discrimination I disagree. It was a huge issue, and I don't think it is right now especially in a country like Canada. At least in terms of most aspects of life. I think our society is quite tolerant for the most part.
It isn't a thing of the past though especially in the US. You can pretend it is but there are some regressive parts of society starting to push.
I agree that straight people don't require an equalization effort. However, I'm also of the opinion that we're already equal, and a pride night isn't going to change anything. If a person commits a crime/discriminates against another because of their sexual orientation they will be judged to the full extent of the law.
There may be legal equality in Canada. It is an incredibly important step but that is not what these events are all about. It’s about showing fans, younger up and coming hockey players, and teammates/opponents that it’s ok to be who you are even though hockey has a long history of being extremely homophobic. The fact that not even a single active NHL player has come out of the closet shows that this type of event is still very necessary. Showing that the NHL is a welcoming place for everyone is a very worthwhile cause.
Legal equality doesn’t matter that much to a kid who lives in perpetual fear that they will be disowned by family or shunned by their closest friends for being who they are. As good as it is to be recognized as equal in the eyes of the law, that isn’t what the average gay person actually experiences as part of their daily life. As a kid, it would have meant so much to me to see my heroes speak up about their support for LGBTQ.
Showing up matters. Speaking out matters.
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Great argument there. Lots of facts to back it up.
Also, I'm not advocating Straight Night... I'm trying to show you guys how ridiculous that sounds... Everyone should be included on any given night, but that's not enough is it?
Also, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a pride night, but that individuals should have a choice of if/how they want to support it.
Straight night sounds stupid because straight people haven’t been discriminated against for decades/centuries. As far as I can remember no one has been tied to a barbed wire fence and stoned to death for being straight.
Yes, eventually everyone should be included every night. But that ignores history and current reality. For everyone to eventually become equal it takes action to lift up those who have been oppressed through generations and let them know that everywhere is a safe place to be who you are.
I actually can’t believe this needs to be explained.
Last edited by RogerWilco; 03-20-2023 at 05:14 PM.
Getting real “All Lives Matter” up in here. Glad the Flames are doing this and hope it goes off without a hitch. Maybe we find out there are arseholes on our roster too but I’d bet against it
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My mother is left-handed, and she told me that her teachers would hit her with a ruler if she wrote with her left hand and one actually tied her left hand to her chair and forced her to write right handed. That's in Canada, in the 60's.
This similar to a story a girl I know from church back in the day. She writes and hold her chopsticks with her right hand, so we all thought she is right handed. Then one day, we went bowling, and she throw her bowling ball with her left hand, and another time, we were playing badminton, she holds her racquet with her left hand. So I asked her, " aren't you right handed?" She told me a story similar to your mom, instead of teacher, it was her mom. When she was a kid, the first time she hold a pencil with her left hand and started drawing with her left hand, her mom freaked out. And when she tried to write with her left hand, her mom hit her with a ruler. And keep hitting her with a ruler and told her it's not "right" and impolite to use your left hand. So, she forced herself to write and use her chopsticks with her right hand, and when she's with her friends, she uses her natural hand. This is true, she is born in the 70's.
